Human remains were found

[Faith]

oceanexploration

As of the 2nd week of Feb, this is what I had learned from the FBI:
The contents of the trap were being actively investigated. The forensic results of a fabric sample showed the fabric sample was not a match to Natalee's blouse and that no DNA match to Natalee was found within that fabric sample. Human remains were found, but the FBI was not and would not comment on the case. The FBI did not comment on the remains, but rather the fabric sample.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.700

[Roamer]

Thank you, Faith.

As I see it, anything could have been in there, not necessarily related to each other.

[Faith]

All of oceanexploration/ Kyle's post on this subject.

Bold part is Kyle's reply

This trap could not have "fallen" from a commercial fishing ship ( such as a shipped docked for repairs, etc.) because of the depth and location.
- Falling is highly unlikely given it's location and condition.

This trap was not lowered by crane, or whatever because it wasn't situated in a position that demonstrated "lowering", unless one end was really weighted down? I would think the ropes etc, to the crane would level it?
-Lowering by a windlass or winch would not explain the impact depression from one corner of the trap. If it were leveled, one would assume it would fall level. This is further supported because the 4-point rigging was still on the trap.


Do the restaurants that sell shrimp and spiny lobsters have fishermen that use these traps? I thought the fishermen docked by the HI.
-This is a different type commercial fish trap used (to my knowledge) in deep water for grouper, snapper, etc


I would think, a trap that size would have to be loaded by the Container Harbor (where Jaime worked). Is there an Aruban commercial fisherman located at The Container Harbor?
-I didn't see any fishing boats at the port facility the entire time I was there.

The belief is that the trap has not been disturbed since it's original placement (which looks to be about when?).
- Unknown, see previous post about the timing and duration

I believe in your scientific mind...so there must be something to all this...or I believe you would have dropped the idea about "this" trap.
- I believe the story of the trap is far from over despite Mos's press release. The other project leads feel it's best to forget about the trap and "move on" mainly for operational reasons (to focus on what may still be out there), also lack of immediate answers about the trap. Keep in mind our tight time and financial constraints. I support their position. It's certainly wise.
- However, I'm personally split three ways about the trap. Not all the project leads feel as I do, but of course all the people involved in the search have highly varied levels of exposure and information particularly in relation to the trap.



Kyle ... I am confused. It was my understanding that it was determined by Tim Miller, Tim Trahan as well as forensic testing that nothing significant in regards to the Natalee Holloway case was found in the cage.

Janet


- Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only. The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January. Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time. Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February. The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers. Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special. This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.



Let me make myself perfectly clear...
I am not raising the issue to project my opinions, feelings or beliefs on others of what may or may not have happened. This is all strictly for discussion purposes and NOT to raise potentially false hope. The purpose is to share information as accurately as possible to hopefully connect some dots in an otherwise royally convoluted mess. It's difficult to objectively analyse information and leave emotion aside, but I ask you to do that here with the information I present. I will continue to let you know what is my opinion and what is historical. The separation is vital.




oceanexploration


The fact is as the bottom line: whether true or not, according to our FBI and the Aruban chief prosecutor we are suppose to believe the trap does not contain Natalee's remains at this point. This is based on the wording of the FBI report and Mos's press release.
-Base on that, the project leads are wisely putting opinions one way or another aside to plan on investigating the remaining targets in the event her remains are still out there among the sonar targets.
- I will not go on the record and state my opinion of whether or not her remains are in that trap because I do not want to sway peoples opinion, spread potentially false hope, destroy valid hope, or eliminate objectivity for other competing scenarios.

-The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing". He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable. It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton. We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.


oceanexploration

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap. There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand. The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break. I walked up and down the beach many times a day. On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site. I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years. He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore. He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day. I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land. It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery. When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.


Kyle ... my frustration stems from the fact that Tim Miller informed Natalee's parents that the find was not related to their daughter and ... the responses of Beth and Dave were quoted.

I give Tim Miller the benefit of the doubt that he had a foundation of information/knowledge prior to giving them the heartbreaking news pertaining the diver's investigation of the cage/trape.

Janet



oceanexploration

-Your frustration mirrors my own. It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined. After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess. I took a lot of heat for telling Tim Miller anything about the trap that may have prompted him to making the calls to the family. In my defence, I specifically told Tim not to tell anyone about the trap until the contents are analysed. He couldn't wait. He was very emotional, hopeful, and confident. It was a crushing time for all. Most of all- for Tim Miller, Dave, and Beth. This was Dec 30th.

Do you remember the name of the coast guard vessel?


oceanexploration


No I don't know it, but there's only one that patrold the waters to my knowledge.

I inquired about the Dutch coast guard being on site during the dates in question when I returned to Aruba. I showed why I was curious and it was solid enough to provoke a response from Adolpho Richardson or Hans Mos (I can't remember and am not sure because I got the response 2nd hand). The response was remarkable and simply: "we do not have dive capability". This odd response raised a few questions in my mind.




Kyle ... you and everybody on Natalee forums know where Tamikosmom stands on the credibility of Hans Mos but ... why would you doubt the FBI's position?

What reason would there be for the FBI to hold back for three months and not reveal that the remains of Natalee Holloway has been located ... the remains of Natalee Holloway can be returned to her parents ... the remains of Natalee Holloway can finally be laid to rest on American soil. What would the reason possibly be for the FBI to lead the family to believe that the remains were not those of their beloved Natalee?

I sincerely want to know.

Janet



oceanexploration
-whether a wise decision or not, it was not my decision to be made. I was under the impression that it was necessary regardless of our opinions and desires as part of working in their waters.





oceanexploration


I would like to state this very clearly:

I am not in any official position. I present merely my view, and I do not reflect the views of the search team, FBI, or anyone else for that matter. Further, what comes from me should be independantly verified as factual. I do my best to present things as accurately as I can, but I am very much human and subject to bias in observation and prone to mistakes. Much of what I think I know, I am often getting 2nd and 3rd hand. Before taking anything I write and running with it as "news" it must come from someone in a 1st-hand official position after careful review. Sorry for the disclaimer, but I feel it is necessary especially as time passes, memory fades, and as complex as things are. I don't want to be responsible for spreading misinformation. As much as I've said so far, it's bound to happen. I've already seen cases where I contradicted myself, added things, and left out details. I ask for a grain of salt, grace, patience, and understanding that I am doing the best I can.

Thanks @}~~<~~~



oceanexploration

Let me clarify.. when I refered to remains.. I am refering to the presense of DNA.

Pg 39
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.760

[Faith]

oceanexploration

I'm glad you all received that in the spirit it was intended.
- I heard about the possibility of human remains 2nd hand from someone who was under the impression that there were remains. It's possible they got that impression because DNA testing was being done by the FBI??

oceanexploration


responding to the Quote from SS:

Kyle's response in bold

I have a few questions.
1) If the FBI at Quantico tested the fabric that was found in the trap, how did they get it? It sounds like the Dutch got their hands on the trap contents as you stood on the beach and watched. You must have just wanted to scream when you figured out what was obviously going on.
- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).
- I cannot confirm nor deny the Dutch doing anything with the site. From my best estimate, it appeared they were on the site. I have no other reason to base this theory on. It's not as obvious as it sounds paraphrased. I think it's a coin flip.


2) Can we assume that the Dutch have the real goods and the FBI just has the fabric?
- I have no idea. I have no reason to assume or speculate on this.

3) Is it possible that possibly very detailed DNA tests are being done on whatever was found and that no statements have been made because of the blunders in the past three years?
- I don't know. The only thing I know is from the report that said no DNA match to Natalee in the fabric and the fabric wasn't a match to her blouse.

4) Do you have any idea who might own a fish trap that size?
-I don't know which is why I raised the question earlier.

5) Are there any other important people who have disappeared from Aruba who could be in that trap?
-I don't have a clue. It's still possible there wasn't anyone ever in the trap. This appears to have been and remains the official stance.

6) Do you think that it's possible there might be additional fish traps among the remaining sites that you need to inspect.
-I can't comment on this because we need to inspect the targets. This is largely the point of inspection.

7) Could Dutch/Aruban interference be the reason why Persistence left so suddenly?
- I have no reason to suspect this. We didn't leave so suddenly. We were there since December 15th and left over two months later. This is hardly sudden.

You must be very frustrated by what is now going on with the contents of the trap.
- I don't know what now is going on with the contents of the trap, if anything. It's hard to know what to think or feel.

You went to Aruba with a very heroic motive and you put out a lot of work. I am more than concerned if information is being withheld or if Natalee's recovery has been sabotaged by the Dutch or Arubans.
-sometimes information being withheld is a good thing and necessary for the sake of the case. The only solid base for witholding info is from our FBI who say they're not commenting on the case. This however, is nothing new and neither bad nor good. It means nothing. I have no reason to suspect sabotage by anyone.

I am also terribly disappointed in even thinking about imagining that Tim Miller would cave into the Dutch or the Aruban ALE.

oceanexploration

The question over whether or not the FBI has human remains or not is not answerable at this point. They are not commenting on the case. They only commented on the fabric sample and that it's not a match to Natalee's blouse.

However, the impression I took away was based on a conversation with someone who told me there were remains, which left me rather suprised to hear from him. But, it's possible that in conversation he confused remains vs. DNA. Honestly, I was under the impression that if there was DNA, there was remains and so I agreed with him.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.780

[Faith]

Kyle's post are very confusing.

[Faith]

This was posted by gagal at RU back when the photo's first
were put up at BNH. gagal was speaking for Robin.
Kyle already told us that the FBI sent the pictures to Dave & Robin.
Gagal was replying to Heli who questioned the motives of Robin.

Did the FBI give Dave and Robin the probability statistic?

I'm not about to attest to your intelligent level or anyone else's. WHAT I do know however is that theses photos were very upsetting to Robin and Dave.. you may see just a trap on the bottom of the floor, but what they saw was the possibility of a "99% probability" this was Natalee.

oceanexploration

The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.

Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti. In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive. It was a crushing dissapointment the evening of Dec 30th, but not over. The tactile inspection dive was coming. Dec 30th, 2007 will forever stand in my mind as one of the hardest single days of my life.


Quote Bladerunner...
Kyle your previous post indicates that the crew of the persistence "supervised" the collection of the contents of the trap as well as items outside of the trap. So are these "samples" what was given to the FBI by Richardson?


oceanexploration
-In short... the only specific item mentioned as being sent was the fabric found inside the trap. It's unclear whether what was sent to the FBI by Richardson was limited to this fabric, or included this fabric and other items. Someone else may know more. This is what I'm sure of.

[Luke Davis]

Exploration (http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/international/2009/jan/Russia-and-Venezuela-Drill-Near-Aruba--Fueling-Cold-War-Fears-.html)


Lots of activity where there was a search for Natalee.


JMO