Polygamous mystery: Does allegedly abused teen bride 'Sarah' exist?

[Tracian]

SAN ANGELO, Texas - Where is the girl?
Thirteen days have passed since Texas authorities entered a polygamous sect's ranch in Eldorado and removed every child living there, but they still do not know if they have the 16-year-old whose calls for help moved them to act.
And there are questions about whether she really exists.
"It's all a farce," says Annette, one FLDS woman whose children are in state custody.
Says Donna: "They searched. Did they find her?"
Skeptics point to a number of problems with the caller's story, which Texas authorities acknowledge was key to the dramatic raid. No call for help, no raid.
FLDS women who were in state shelters with their children until Monday say investigators appeared desperate to find "Sarah" and were grilling girls by that name.
There also are discrepancies between what the girl said about her "spiritual husband" and what is known about the man later named in the search and arrest warrant first used to enter the YFZ Ranch, owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Authorities say a girl named Sarah made a series of telephone calls to the crisis line at NewBridge Family Shelter on March 29 and March 30.
In those calls, the girl talked of becoming the seventh wife of a 50-year-old man named "Dale" and conceiving her first child when she was 15, according to affidavits used to get the first search warrant. In a later call, she seemed to indicate he had three other wives living at the ranch.
She described being beaten by her husband, once so badly she needed treatment at a hospital for broken ribs.
The girl said she was pregnant and wanted to leave the ranch but had been warned of the dangers of the outside world and threatened with being locked up. She also said her parents, who lived out of state, were planning to send her younger sister to the ranch.
Two women who have worked with teens leaving the FLDS sect - Joni Holm of Utah and Flora Jessop of Arizona - say Sarah is real.
Holm said last week she has been in contact with people who know Sarah and believes she is among the girls now in state custody.
"They just have to keep weeding through them," she said last week. Neither Holm nor Jessop returned calls from The Salt Lake Tribune on Tuesday.

But there are some who believe the story of a 16-year-old victim sounds concocted, that Photo Gallery
FLDS Day 12: Texas defends taking children
statements attributed to her don't ring true.
"There is no verbage or terminology used that leads me to believe the statements were made by someone inside," said Ezra Draper of Hildale, Utah, who left the FLDS sect six years ago. "I think it's bunk."
Examples: The term FLDS use to describe other people is "gentiles," not outsiders, and they don't observe such holidays as Easter Sunday, when the alleged victim claimed she was last beaten.
Susan Risdon, the crisis shelter spokeswoman, said the calls to the shelter were not recorded but that the two employees who spoke with the girl wrote down what she said.
"I think it's the exact language," Risdon said.
He points out that only the most worthy among the FLDS were called to live at the ranch. Those "FLDS wouldn't have tolerated any abuse like that [the girl's broken ribs] within their society," he says.
Draper also wonders how the girl knew to call the shelter, given the isolation and control that authorities say those at the ranch experienced.
Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney who is representing the FLDS families, said there are "sufficient questions surrounding the authenticity of that call that cry out for an answer."

On Monday, hours after being separated from the children taken into state custody, FLDS women claimed authorities appeared driven to find Sarah.
"They are trying to pin it on anybody named Sarah," said Annette, who is back at the YFZ Ranch after more than a week in custody with her six children and five nieces and nephews she is raising.
Sarah is a common name and several are in custody, she said. One by one, the Sarahs have been interviewed, she said. "They find out and then let them go, then grab another one and try to find out and the let them go."
"There is just not a Sarah that fits what they said," said Annette.
Investigators have zeroed in on one Sarah in particular, Annette said. The girl, who has a 5-month-old daughter, is petite and looks young, so the investigators don't believe she is 18, she said. She declined to name the girl's husband, but said it is not Dale Evans Barlow, the Arizona man named in the initial arrest and search warrants.
One night, shortly before midnight, child welfare workers came into the dorm where the mothers with small children were and told this specific Sarah that she and her baby had to leave. In a phone call later, Sarah told other mothers she and her baby were sent to a house, alone, at Fort Concho, Annette and other women said.
On Tuesday, 51st District Judge Barbara Walther rejected an attempt by this Sarah's family to have her recognized as an adult so she could be represented by a private attorney rather than an attorney ad litem.

Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said investigators are still looking for the 16-year-old who placed the calls, but she said she didn't know whether they have any good candidates.
Texas Rangers interviewed Barlow on Saturday and Mange said they are still reviewing information he provided. She said Texas authorities are not ready yet to definitively clear him of any involvement with a 16-year-old girl in Texas.
Barlow, who was convicted in Arizona of sexual misconduct with a minor in 2007, has said he does not know the girl and has not been to Texas since 1977 - claims backed by his attorney and his Arizona probation officer.
A presentencing report prepared on Barlow by Arizona authorities states that he has three wives - all of whom, according to friends and family, live in Colorado City, Ariz. That contradicts the girl's description of his family.

Some experts say it matters less if Sarah is never found or turns out not to exist.
It is the strength or weakness of the state's evidence of alleged abuse found at the ranch that will matter when Judge Walther decides whether the 416 FLDS children will go to foster homes, they say.
John J. Sampson, a University of Texas law professor and expert on family law, said those cases will focus on what investigators found once they were at the ranch.
But if the state hopes to later bring criminal charges, they must find Sarah.
"The problem for the state is this girl is the linchpin that holds together any criminal case against the group or even any individual," said Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor.
brooke@sltrib.com

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8941294

[Details]

You can't prosecute 'Dale' without 'Sarah' - but so long as the police didn't make up the call to have an excuse to go in, their search was legitimate whether or not Sarah can be found, or even exists. 'Sarah' could have made up a different name, or could even be a recent escapee.

But, so long as the search was an honest search - one in which the police and LE believed someone was in danger - it's legitimate. And all new crimes discovered in this search are still crimes, any abused children found will still be able to be protected.

[Roenick]

I was just wondering if it was a phony phone call. But I'd think it would be random to make up a 16 yr old named Sara. But they could have had previous or inside info.

[Tracian]

Sarah is a common religious name, I have to say I am a bit curious about the call. Not that I agree with this sect, but it could be a scary president for the government to raid someone or a group simply because they have suspiscions, or don't approve of the lifestyle.

[chambord]

Sarah is a common religious name, I have to say I am a bit curious about the call. Not that I agree with this sect, but it could be a scary president for the government to raid someone or a group simply because they have suspiscions, or don't approve of the lifestyle.


From what I have read/heard, there has been an undercover agent in that compound for four years. Perhaps the info gathered during that time was the catalist for the raid, and not necessarily Sara. If there was child/sexual abuse happening, I'd rather see something done, sooner than later, even though there might not be a particular *Sara*. The early am news reports I heard, was that they found several 13, 14 yr olds visibly pregnant. I lost track of what happened later today at the hearing, due to real life. Was there any rulings?

[cogito]

From what I have read/heard, there has been an undercover agent in that compound for four years. Perhaps the info gathered during that time was the catalist for the raid, and not necessarily Sara. If there was child/sexual abuse happening, I'd rather see something done, sooner than later, even though there might not be a particular *Sara*. The early am news reports I heard, was that they found several 13, 14 yr olds visibly pregnant. I lost track of what happened later today at the hearing, due to real life. Was there any rulings?

You can go into any inner city and find visibly pregnant young teens. I have no love for the FLDS since I am LDS and their practices cause a great deal of trouble for me and my church. However, my dislike for them does not go so far as to not keep an open mind. Where any group keeps to themselves, the people who break away from them are free to say just about anything they want without fear of rebuttal or defense from the group. Exagerrations are bound to happen.Flat out lies are bound to happen as well. I know that for a fact because my own church has been the victim of falsehoods and lies told by bitter ex-members and people who are just generally filled with so much hate and prejudice that they'll believe and pass along as the truth, any salacious bit of information they hear.

As far as the FLDS are concerned. My own personal knowledge of them is limited to the fact that Carolyn Jessop's ex-brother-in-law is married to the daughter of one of my dear friends. He left the FLDS and joined the LDS church. He had to go though interviews that went all the way up to the higher authorities of the church before he was allowed to join. The FLDS cause a great deal of trouble fo the mainstream LDS church.

A great deal of what Craig Jessop has related to me about life in the compound meshes with news reports. However, enough of it does not that I take the more salacious reports with a grain of salt.

The idea that a bed for consummating marriages was found in the upper rooms of their temple might be true. I do not know how much the FLDS have perverted the temple marriage ceremony. However, LDS members are married kneeling across an altar. The altar is small, padded, and covered with a cloth. Were it not for the size, and if the person who was looking at it had preconcieved notions about what went on...I suppose it could be mistaken for a small bed. The altars are small because they are intended to accomodate only two people. However, it is a sealing ceremony and so, when new members join and bring in their children to be sealed to them, the altar can become a bit crowded depending upon the number of kids present who are also kneeling at the altar with their parents.

I am given to understand that women and children were taken from one man and assigned to another depending upon the whims of the FLDS leaders. It is a practice, if true, that deserves condemnation. However, if a large group of people were to be sealed to another large group of people, that altar that might resemble a very small bed would now have to be large enough that it would resemble a normal or even larger bed. It might very well have been a bed. t might very well have been used for the purposes that the news reports claim it was used for....however, my money is on the probability that it was or they were very large altars. Temples typically have more than one sealing room.

People with preconcieved notions might easily be persuaded that these were, in fact, beds and that they were their for the sole purpose of consummating marriages of young teens forced into marriage with octogenarians. It is an understandable mistake, human nature being what it is and people loving to trumpet the sensational...I'm surprised I haven't heard reports of Warren Jeff Pez dispensers filled with viagra.

[chambord]

cogito

Thanks for the interesting information. I admit to knowing next to nothing about other religious practises except my own. That being said, I beleive that one marriage partner at a time is what the Lord intended. I just don't get the sharing philopsy to serve one man between several women. That's what offends me.

[Tracian]

cogito

Thanks for the interesting information. I admit to knowing next to nothing about other religious practises except my own. That being said, I beleive that one marriage partner at a time is what the Lord intended. I just don't get the sharing philopsy to serve one man between several women. That's what offends me.


Personally, I don't care what adults choose to do, IMO, having two wives is far more honest than having a wife and a mistress on the side.

I could not live this lifestyle, but I don't want any religion to dictate through the law how a family is defined; further, I want to say freedom of religion means all religion, as long as the human rights are followed according to the law. In other words, even if one's religion says to sacrifice the first born, common sense and reason know that should not be protected as religious freedom.

I am concerned about this 'Sara' because if there was an undercover agent in the compound, then why make up a story about a girl calling? If Sara is a real person that risked her life to make the call, then there should be every effort to find her.

[cogito]

cogito

Thanks for the interesting information. I admit to knowing next to nothing about other religious practises except my own. That being said, I beleive that one marriage partner at a time is what the Lord intended. I just don't get the sharing philopsy to serve one man between several women. That's what offends me.

And where did you get the idea that such was what The Lord intended? Surely not from reading about the Lord's prophets such as Abraham and Issac.

[Tracian]

And where did you get the idea that such was what The Lord intended? Surely not from reading about the Lord's prophets such as Abraham and Issac.


This is quite true, Biblically speaking plural marriage was accepted and embraced.

I am not meaning to offend you cogito, but I also believe that when Mormons did practice this, it because of the scripture, but now, I also believe that it has been perverted by some, not all that still practice plural marriage.

[cogito]

This is quite true, Biblically speaking plural marriage was accepted and embraced.

I am not meaning to offend you cogito, but I also believe that when Mormons did practice this, it because of the scripture, but now, I also believe that it has been perverted by some, not all that still practice plural marriage.

From a doctrinal standpoint, we believe in plural marriage...we just don't feelit necessary to practice it anymore. Mainly we believe in eternal marriage and we believe that, because women are generally more righteous than men, there will be more of them in Heaven...henace the plurality of wives thing.

You're right. I think that it has been perverted by the fundamentalist group. There is a constant effort by that group to 'infiltrate'the mainstream LDS church. That is why anyone with even remote ties to that group has to go through a much more rigorous interview process that reaches all the way to the church hierarchy before they're allowed to join.

[Tracian]

From a doctrinal standpoint, we believe in plural marriage...we just don't feelit necessary to practice it anymore. Mainly we believe in eternal marriage and we believe that, because women are generally more righteous than men, there will be more of them in Heaven...henace the plurality of wives thing.

You're right. I think that it has been perverted by the fundamentalist group. There is a constant effort by that group to 'infiltrate'the mainstream LDS church. That is why anyone with even remote ties to that group has to go through a much more rigorous interview process that reaches all the way to the church hierarchy before they're allowed to join.


May I ask you this:

I know we discussed it a while back, but I forgot your answer.

Do you think that Mormons abandoned the plural marriage on this level, because of the desire for statehood? Also, do you think that if legalized the Mormon Church may return to the practice?

[chambord]

Personally, I don't care what adults choose to do, IMO, having two wives is far more honest than having a wife and a mistress on the side.

I could not live this lifestyle, but I don't want any religion to dictate through the law how a family is defined; further, I want to say freedom of religion means all religion, as long as the human rights are followed according to the law. In other words, even if one's religion says to sacrifice the first born, common sense and reason know that should not be protected as religious freedom.

I am concerned about this 'Sara' because if there was an undercover agent in the compound, then why make up a story about a girl calling? If Sara is a real person that risked her life to make the call, then there should be every effort to find her.


Aren't they making the effort to find *Sara*?

Furthermore, what lifestyle *adults choose*, shouldn't be the way of life for innocent children. They have a birthright to make their own lifestyle choices when they are of age to do so, and not have it ingrained at an earlier age.

[Tracian]

Aren't they making the effort to find *Sara*?

Furthermore, what lifestyle *adults choose*, shouldn't be the way of life for innocent children. They have a birthright to make their own lifestyle choices when they are of age to do so, and not have it ingrained at an earlier age.


At one point biracial marriages where illegal, people thought that the children would suffer because of the choice of the parents.

Anyone that is religious, generally speaking raises their children according to their beliefs, just because you don't approve of their belief system should they not be allowed to teach that to their children?

Babies are baptised without their consent, some religions have their children confirmed in their church when still minors, should this also be disallowed?

Would you like those that don't agree with your religious beliefs tell you that you can't raise your child according to those?

Just how much control do you think that the government should have over its citizens?

[chambord]

At one point biracial marriages where illegal, people thought that the children would suffer because of the choice of the parents.

Anyone that is religious, generally speaking raises their children according to their beliefs, just because you don't approve of their belief system should they not be allowed to teach that to their children?

Babies are baptised without their consent, some religions have their children confirmed in their church when still minors, should this also be disallowed?

Would you like those that don't agree with your religious beliefs tell you that you can't raise your child according to those?

Just how much control do you think that the government should have over its citizens?


I shall bow out of this discussion. I should have maintained my creed not to get involved into what someone happens to believe in. My only interest and concern was to the well being of the four hundred plus children who were removed from the compound. This country was founded on religious freedom, and that includes my children, yours and anyone else's to make their own choice. I hope the children now under protective custody are allowed that right.

Carry on.

[cogito]

May I ask you this:

I know we discussed it a while back, but I forgot your answer.

Do you think that Mormons abandoned the plural marriage on this level, because of the desire for statehood? Also, do you think that if legalized the Mormon Church may return to the practice?

I doubt we would ever return to the practice. There were two reasons for it being practiced in the first place. In order to understand one of th, a bit of groundwork needs to be established.

What we believe sets the LDS church apart from other churches is authority or "keys" This authority, we believe, was given directly from Christ to his apostles and when they died, it was taken from the earth. We believe that Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and restored the keys of authority. We believe that these keys have been here on the earth in an unbroken succession since.

Throughout biblical history, there have been several instances of God establishing his word among men and giving his authority to a prophet. We believe that these periods of time are called, 'dispensations' There have been 7:

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, and this, the last dispensation was ushered in by Joseph Smith. While we place Joseph Smith in importance along side most other leaders of dispensations, we do NOT believe that he is anywhere near s important as Christ. I felt I needed to add that because of certain misconceptions people have about us.

Now...dispensations are also marked by certain special keys or facets of the Lord's Gospel. Plural marriage would have been the key introduced and practiced during the Abrahamic dispensation. The gathering of Israel under Moses and so forth....

This is the last dispensation before the 2nd coming of Christ and has been called the "Dispensation of the fullness of times" during which all of the keys held during the previous dispensations were restored and, as a matter of fulfillment of the Gospel, practiced. Plural marriage being one of them

Since it has been practiced during this dispensation, the requirement has been fulfilled and it is no longer a necessity, doctrinally-speaking.

The second reason that plural marriage was praticed was the fact that the LDS church came under some pretty nasty persecution in Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois during the early years. Many men were killed and that left a lot of women without marriage prospects. A man was not allowed to take another wife just because he felt like it. There were certain provisions to be met first.

The first wife and any other wives had to agree to it.

Th man had to be able to provide (and provide well) for the new wife and her children. Most had their own homes.

The bishop had to call the man and ask him to do so (the woman in question's permission having been previously sought and obtained)

Many of these women were what we called 'wives in name only' meaning that no consummation of the marriage took place. They simply were married and became the responsibility of the husband. As a matter of fact, Mark Twain was said to have remarked that he had seen many of these woman and considered the marrying of them the most Christian act he could imagine.

However, back to your original question. I don't think, given those reasons, it would ever be necessary and would ever be practiced again. I certainly hope not...I have enough trouble with just the one wife. I don't need two or three more ganging up on me.

[cogito]

I'm really concerned about the implications as well. Like I said, I don't hold with their practices but I am not convinced that the abuse of children is as widespread or pervasice as reports would have us believe.

If young teen mothers were a reason for taking children in protective custody....why isn't CPS swooping down in inner city neighborhoods and taking young teen mothers into protective custody?

[StoneFox]

I'm really concerned about the implications as well. Like I said, I don't hold with their practices but I am not convinced that the abuse of children is as widespread or pervasice as reports would have us believe.

If young teen mothers were a reason for taking children in protective custody....why isn't CPS swooping down in inner city neighborhoods and taking young teen mothers into protective custody?

It is not that teen girls are pregnant, it is how they were taken against their will and impregnated. They are not asked if they want to be married, they are told they will be married. If that isn't bad enough, they are 'given' to men old enough to be their grandfathers.

If you followed the Warren Jeffs trial, it became evident some of these young girls are married off against their will, especially the ones who are in their early teens. The young girl in that case, Alissa, was tramatized by the fact she would be married. She had NO say in it. She was TOLD she would be married and the next day she was. In her case, it was a way to control her somewhat rebellious way. IMO, it is nothing more than a means of torture and mind control. Or maybe you have to be a woman who has been forced to have sex against her will to understand the trauma attached to such an act.

MOO~JMO

[StoneFox]

One more note:

Alissa, Jeffs accuser was also forced to marry her cousin, a man she did not like. She protested about it, knowing that marrying a cousin was wong, but she was still forced to marry him. She cried through her entire wedding day and night.

That is wrong in my book, and it is against the law in America. Otherwise, Jeffs would not be in prison and this girls husband would not be facing charges.

[chambord]

One more note:

Alissa, Jeffs accuser was also forced to marry her cousin, a man she did not like. She protested about it, knowing that marrying a cousin was wong, but she was still forced to marry him. She cried through her entire wedding day and night.

That is wrong in my book, and it is against the law in America. Otherwise, Jeffs would not be in prison and this girls husband would not be facing charges.

Exactly! No one should be *forced* to enter into any union. And Jeffs is where he belongs.

jmo

[Tracian]

I think we all agree that what is happening is wrong concerning making young women marry a man they do not want to be married to; again, each case has to be viewed by its own merit.

Now, I am not FDLS or a polygamist; however, I am a firm believer in the basic rights we should all share in this country, regardless of the popularity of that choice, as long as it does follow human rights, and of course the law, regarding health and safety, i.e. murder, rape, assault.

But here is my question, what if a 16 year old girl chooses to marry a man in this sect? I don't know what the state law in Texas is regarding underage marriage with parental consent, but some states do allow those 16 even younger to marry, so is the issue with the age of the girls or their chosen religion?

Now, I realize that there is more to this issue than marriage because of plural wives, but again, if we are horrified by young girls marrying, then why are we (society) not pushing to change the law in all states regarding anyone? Does anyone really think that FLDS are the only people that 'arrange' marriages or have plural wives?

Why do we (collective) ignore other abuses or endangerment of children in other religions? Such as snake handlers, or those sects that drink poison?

I want the children and young girls protected of course, but again, sometimes what looks good right now, may become an out of control monster down the road.

Jamie Floyd mentioned that her parents were not legally married for a long time because her father is Black and her mother White, because that was not a 'legal' marriage, and because of the attitude of the time, would it have been 'right' if CPS felt children in such a family were abused? (that was Jamie's comments, to the best I can remember them)

Again, I am not defending Jeffs or those like Jeffs; I am just offering opinions about freedom of religion, practice and the belief system that some or even most may not like or understand, but is that alone enough to assume that children are being abused?

And if that is an assumption, and this 'girl' that called was a hoax, is it right to allow the government to raid and the end justify the means?

Further, think about this for a minute:

Most of you know I am Wiccan, which many either purposely or just are not educated enough in this spiritual belief, believe is satanic worship.

Suppose a well meaning neighbor believes that I am a Satan worshipper, and my young children are in danger due to what they believe they 'know' about my religion.

So not with malice, really, but out of honest concern for my children, they have a child call the police, and make a claim saying they were in fear, because I was going to force them to participate in some act that would either physically or emotionally harm them.

So the police move in, and raid my house and take my children. They question my children and keep them away from me.


Sound far fetched? Nope, it has happened Montel did a show about this, a couple went to prison for 3 years, their children were questioned, and finally only told the police what they wanted to hear, when they were promised they could go home, with their parents.

This case did not deal with religion, but it was with precious little evidence that the LE moved in on this family.

What I don't understand is why the LE had to wait for any information to enter the compound. It is well known that welfare fraud is happening in these groups, the 'extra' wives are considered 'single mothers' and get AFDC and food stamps, WIC and other government aid, this alone would be enough to send Social Workers to check on the children.

I do question the grandiose way this came together, I question the real reason behind this 'raid', especially since it was reported on Nancy Grace that this very sect had millions of dollars in government contracts for manufacturing items for the military, another very 'easy' way for outsiders to come into the compound.

Again, I am not defending the abuse of children, or marriage by force, rape or intimination.

[StoneFox]

If a 16 y/o chooses to be married, the parents give consent, and the child is of legal age to marry with the parents consent, then I don't have a problem with that. That is not the case with this cult.

If anybody is interested, at the link below, you can read Harriet Ryan's account of the testimony given by Alissa during her case against Warren Jeffs. It is heartbreaking, disgusting, and nothing more than evil the way they force these young girls into marriage.

http://www.courttv.com/news/polygamy/112106_ctv.html

IMO, Texas LE took proper action when they received a call from a person claiming abuse at the hands of her 'husband'. Texas LE had an informant living on the compound for 4 years, feeding them information about situations at the compound. The mere fact that at least 5 girls taken from the compound are in their early teens and either pregnant or already have a child is evidence underage sex is happening. I am sure this informant had given such information to LE along with other information about illegal activities. The call to the abuse hotline was the icing on the cake that LE needed to move 'legally' against this cult.

Polygamy has been ignored in Utah and Arizona for over a 100 years. I don't think we are being selective about which children are considered to be in an abusive environment. Abuses against children are reported every day. It is up to LE to take the proper action. It is up to the citizens in these area to complain if LE is not taking proper action.

Big thanks to Texas for having the cojones to take action when they finally had enough information to hopefully stop these abuses in their area. I hope and pray Utah, Arizona, and Colorado are taking notes and will also take appropriate action.

JMO~~of course

[NJ_Nurse]

Polygamist Sect Wives May Have Given Birth as Early as 13, Investigator Testifies

Friday, April 18, 2008 Fox News

SAN ANGELO, Texas — After hours of legal wrangling, a custody hearing for hundreds of children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused when a child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.

Full story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351544,00.html

[StoneFox]

Judge rules the court will keep the children from the polygamist compound.

Thank God for Texas and their courage with this undertaking.

[NJ_Nurse]

I agree StoneFox. If nothing had been done, many more children would be raised to have sex with old men, all in the name of ex-cult-leader Warren Jeffs, now in jail himself for being an accomplice to rape. He faces further charges.....

I think much counseling will be needed so that these poor people will be able to function in a normal society where women and children are not raised to be subjugated to the whim of what appears to be their captors. Only the women and children know no other life and have been taught how they are being treated is perfectly normal.

Now DNA testing has to be done because no one knows whose children belong to who. Can you imagine the inbredding? Some of the women have a zombie glazed look, I think because they are in the presence of what they have been taught are the devils (the outsiders). I feel so badly for them.

A home grown cult where children are being used as objects for sex. How very despicable. And the busloads of lawyers can't get there fast enough, because imo they have heard Jeff's organization has stockpiled tons of cash. What a mess.

[StoneFox]

Tracian, there is another thread on the board where some of your comments are addressed. Specifically the gov contracts. These businesses are NOT run from these compounds. If you are really interested in knowing the facts of this case, there are numerous links in the posts at http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905. IMO, some of the things you are posting here are misconstrued.

:happy0207: Katy

[Tracian]

Tracian, there is another thread on the board where some of your comments are addressed. Specifically the gov contracts. These businesses are NOT run from these compounds. If you are really interested in knowing the facts of this case, there are numerous links in the posts at http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905. IMO, some of the things you are posting here are misconstrued.

:happy0207: Katy


Like I said it was reported on Nancy Grace, if you want me to get the transcripts, I will be more than happy to do so; My opinion regarding certain aspects are just that, my opinion, and I am of the opinion, and it is also a fact that FLDS is not the only religious sect in this country that does arranged under aged marriage, or plural marriage, it is also a fact that there are in this country groups that engage in snake handling and the drinking of poison, and expose their minor children to these practices.

I am not the only person questioning the way this was handled, lawyers are speaking to this issue as well, and like I said, I think as an American citizen it is a bit scary to have children taken without some kind of investigation.

Hey, it maybe great because these are the 'bad guys' but when you excuse or tweak the law because you (collective) have a belief about them it is only a matter of time in a different scenario them become you

(the last 'you' was a general generic term)

[Details]

Children were taken due to evidence found on the scene. We don't allow children in any group to be left in a possibly dangerous situation - the children are removed when it's reasonable to think there is danger. That applies to snake handlers, poison drinkers - if the police came in and found half the children half dead with poison, or showing marks of snakebite, they'd be removed too.

And, yes, we have bad laws sometimes where an interracial household, or a wiccan household might be considered an abusively bad environment. The answer to this is to update those laws, not to ignore abusively bad environments, or change the laws so we are less responsive to children in danger.

[Tracian]

Children were taken due to evidence found on the scene. We don't allow children in any group to be left in a possibly dangerous situation - the children are removed when it's reasonable to think there is danger. That applies to snake handlers, poison drinkers - if the police came in and found half the children half dead with poison, or showing marks of snakebite, they'd be removed too.

And, yes, we have bad laws sometimes where an interracial household, or a wiccan household might be considered an abusively bad environment. The answer to this is to update those laws, not to ignore abusively bad environments, or change the laws so we are less responsive to children in danger.

Thank you Details for taking my post in the spirit offered. I did a check, and most states allow marriage at 16, some even younger with parental consent.

Now, the laws should be changed, because it would be wrong, to just pick and choose who the law is for, (again, I am not defending this sect) if you don't like the law, then it should be changed for everyone, and the law also has to apply to everyone.

[Details]

The law does apply to everyone - snake handlers, wiccans, FLDS - anyone putting children in danger. The definition of what is a dangerous living situation is the key, not the laws that protect children from them. That's what your scenarios worry about.

And these children are not being married at 16. First - it's rarely the first bride, so there is no legal marriage at all. Those laws about marriage at 16 - many have limitations on them (with judicial approval, similar aged husband, etc.). Second - all the evidence is saying they don't wait all the way until 16. A 16 year old with 4 children - she wasn't married at 16. A 16 year old pregnant now - when was she married? The cult children say there is no age that is too young - that's what they are taught.

[Tracian]

The law does apply to everyone - snake handlers, wiccans, FLDS - anyone putting children in danger. The definition of what is a dangerous living situation is the key, not the laws that protect children from them. That's what your scenarios worry about.

And these children are not being married at 16. First - it's rarely the first bride, so there is no legal marriage at all. Those laws about marriage at 16 - many have limitations on them (with judicial approval, similar aged husband, etc.). Second - all the evidence is saying they don't wait all the way until 16. A 16 year old with 4 children - she wasn't married at 16. A 16 year old pregnant now - when was she married? The cult children say there is no age that is too young - that's what they are taught.


Contrary to what some believe, I have followed many cases such as this, and I agree with your post.

My concern comes from listening to other lawyers, and media reports, for instance:

Why did they have to 'wait' for this 'call'? The second, third, and so forth wife is not 'legal' and they are reportedly on Welfare, which means they are subject to 'welfare' checks by Social workers, so why has that not been done? Why have they been issued government contracts? Why, Why, Why...

I applaud the 'rescue' of those victimized, but I fear those that think it is okay to bend the law because they feel that those that they are raiding are morally wrong, so it excuses the action.

[Details]

I think LE are terrified of Waco, and of being accused of violating freedom of religion. So a lot of checks that should be done are not done. The later wives aren't legal - but having sex outside marriage, as consentual adults, is not illegal, so they've no reason to look. They waited for the call to go above and beyond on waiting for some proof - even after having the informant, even after all the information from Jeff's trial and from those who have escaped. The call wasn't proof, it was a good reason to talk to Sarah. The actions of the FLDS, in trying to hide Sarah caused the full scale search. Had they cooperated, not lied (they said there was no girl named Sarah there - an obvious lie as there were several), brought children out rather than hiding them, the police would have had no reason for the full search.

How is the law bent? They got a call, which showed a person in danger, which also fit all the information they had about the cult. They had to investigate it. Once there, they saw children in danger - they had to act there as well. That's not bending, that's following the law. Ignoring what they saw and knew would be bending the law to support the cult.

[LiveLaughLuv]

Colorado woman is 'person of interest' in polygamist case

NEW: Texas Rangers pursue Rozita Swinton regarding phone calls to a crisis center

NEW: Search of Swinton's home reveals evidence that possibly links her to the calls

Police arrest the woman for making a false report to police in a separate case

Phone calls prompted Texas raid, but officers then got a second search warrant


(CNN) -- A Colorado woman is being pursued as a "person of interest" in connection with phone calls that triggered the raid of a Texas polygamist ranch, authorities said Friday.


Rozita Swinton, 33, has been arrested in a case that is not directly related to the Texas raid.

Texas Rangers are seeking Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs, Colorado, "regarding telephone calls placed to a crisis center hot line in San Angelo, Texas, in late March 2008," the Rangers said in a written statement.

The raid of the YFZ (Yearning for Zion) Ranch in Eldorado, Texas, came after a caller -- who identified herself as a 16-year-old girl -- said she had been physically and sexually abused by an adult man with whom she was forced into a "spiritual marriage."

The release said a search of Swinton's home in Colorado uncovered evidence that possibly links her to phone calls made about the ranch, run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"The possibility exists that Rozita Swinton, who has nothing to do with the FLDS church, may have been a woman who made calls and pretended she was the 16-year-old girl named Sarah," CNN's Gary Tuchman reported.

Swinton, 33, has been charged in Colorado with false reporting to authorities and is in police custody. Police said that arrest was not directly related to the Texas case.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/18/polygamy.fri/index.html


Even though this was a prank call, the authorities have enough evidence to hold the children. This will not hamper their investigations...Thankfully!

[cogito]

A judge wants attorneys representing FLDS mothers and children to ask local LDS congregations if they would be willing to "provide a buffer" for FLDS members who wish to pray in groups at a temporary shelter.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272498,00.html


Apparently, the Bill of Rights is under suspension in Texas...you now have to have someone monitor your prayers.

[Tracian]

I think LE are terrified of Waco, and of being accused of violating freedom of religion. So a lot of checks that should be done are not done. The later wives aren't legal - but having sex outside marriage, as consentual adults, is not illegal, so they've no reason to look. They waited for the call to go above and beyond on waiting for some proof - even after having the informant, even after all the information from Jeff's trial and from those who have escaped. The call wasn't proof, it was a good reason to talk to Sarah. The actions of the FLDS, in trying to hide Sarah caused the full scale search. Had they cooperated, not lied (they said there was no girl named Sarah there - an obvious lie as there were several), brought children out rather than hiding them, the police would have had no reason for the full search.

How is the law bent? They got a call, which showed a person in danger, which also fit all the information they had about the cult. They had to investigate it. Once there, they saw children in danger - they had to act there as well. That's not bending, that's following the law. Ignoring what they saw and knew would be bending the law to support the cult.


If they knew the call was a hoax, then the law was bent, that is the allegation according to some media reports.

Waco was investigated before they moved in, Waco was about guns, and they had a real witness that they interviewed face to face about sexual abuse of children.

What danger did they see children in? Where there signs of beatings, starvation, were the living quarters filthy? Where the children poorly dressed in rags?

Like I said, I don't agree with them, but in the inner cities, CPS does not take pregnant 13 year old girls away from their parents without investigation, and if that was done in the poor inner cities, there would be screaming of racism, targeting the poor, etc.

According to reports, many of these women are on Welfare, as single mothers, as this appears to be the case, why didn't case workers come in to do 'house checks', to ensure that welfare fraud was not going on? Why didn't they do child welfare checks?

As far as having sex outside marriage, you're correct, but if the state says the age of consent is 16, then that is the age of concent for everyone, whether they are FDLS or not. Don't like the law? then change it for everyone.

I just don't like that the end is justifying the means.

[cogito]

People who have no problem with what's going on have no idea how easily it is for your individual rights to be trampled.

Victor Hugo penned a great phrase in "Les Miserables" about people who are so sure-fired convinced that they are right and someone else is wrong....it allows them to do the most unspeakable things. I think the phrase was, "what evil good can be"

[Tracian]

People who have no problem with what's going on have no idea how easily it is for your individual rights to be trampled.

Victor Hugo penned a great phrase in "Les Miserables" about people who are so sure-fired convinced that they are right and someone else is wrong....it allows them to do the most unspeakable things. I think the phrase was, "what evil good can be"


I was watching Nancy Grace last night, and of course she is all for this action, a news break said that the call from 'Sara' was traced to Colorado, now I know as well as anyone here that it is not that hard to trace a call; further, the caller is identified as an African American woman, which also makes me wonder, since it has been reported that no African Americans are part of the sect.

Now, if this Sarah called from Colorado, why did the caller claim to being held in Texas? And since they discovered the call came from Colorado,(this is before they identified the caller) and there is a compound there, why didn't Texas LE notify Colorado and inform them that they may have an abused minor calling for help from that compound?

[cogito]

What I find most disturbing is the fact that the raid was conducted on a bogus charge...no evidence of impropriety was witnessed by CPS workers. They did not witness nor have anyone come up to them and say she was an abused bride forced into a marriage and yet, they confiscated all of the children anyway. They have no evidence still of anything that they alledge and yet they still keep the children and their mothers away from each other. Scriptures were confiscated. People are not allowed to pray in private and they are not allowed to hear sermons.

If this were Guantanamo and these people were suspected terrorists...the media and the liberals would be all up in arms about the abuses. Apparently, the rights of non-Americans to practice their religion on American soil supercedes that of Americans.

[Tracian]

What I find most disturbing is the fact that the raid was conducted on a bogus charge...no evidence of impropriety was witnessed by CPS workers. They did not witness nor have anyone come up to them and say she was an abused bride forced into a marriage and yet, they confiscated all of the children anyway. They have no evidence still of anything that they alledge and yet they still keep the children and their mothers away from each other. Scriptures were confiscated. People are not allowed to pray in private and they are not allowed to hear sermons.

If this were Guantanamo and these people were suspected terrorists...the media and the liberals would be all up in arms about the abuses. Apparently, the rights of non-Americans to practice their religion on American soil supercedes that of Americans.

I agree. A few years ago, the an Amish girl went to the LE because she was raped by her father, and brothers. According to Amish law, as long as the men confessed to the elders all is forgiven, and the police where not notified.

When the girl went to the outside world and told the police, the Amish Elders did not lie, they confirmed the report by the girl; but never did CPS or any other agency go into the Amish community and take children, or question other young girls about abuses or rape, even though the girl that came forward stated that her abuse was not unique.

If anyone doubts this, I will hunt up the links, 20/20 or 48 hours covered this as well as other media.

[cogito]

I agree. A few years ago, the an Amish girl went to the LE because she was raped by her father, and brothers. According to Amish law, as long as the men confessed to the elders all is forgiven, and the police where not notified.

When the girl went to the outside world and told the police, the Amish Elders did not lie, they confirmed the report by the girl; but never did CPS or any other agency go into the Amish community and take children, or question other young girls about abuses or rape, even though the girl that came forward stated that her abuse was not unique.

If anyone doubts this, I will hunt up the links, 20/20 or 48 hours covered this as well as other media.

No need to...it happened in Viroqua Wisconsin....right down the road from me. They aren't going into Catholic schools and saving all those children from predator priests. Neither are they going into inner cities and saving all the teenage moms there.

One of the reasons they cited for keeping the children was their fear of being "indoctrinated" (I guess that's government speak for "taught their religion")

The government doesn't have any problem whatsoever with our kids being indoctrinated in public schools to be sexually active at young ages....just as long as they aren't married and having sex I guess..
:francis:

[Tracian]

No need to...it happened in Viroqua Wisconsin....right down the road from me. They aren't going into Catholic schools and saving all those children from predator priests. Neither are they going into inner cities and saving all the teenage moms there.

One of the reasons they cited for keeping the children was their fear of being "indoctrinated" (I guess that's government speak for "taught their religion")

The government doesn't have any problem whatsoever with our kids being indoctrinated in public schools to be sexually active at young ages....just as long as they aren't married and having sex I guess..
:francis:



I bolded part of your post, because that is a scary president.

[Details]

The judge has stated that she has no interest in preventing them from learning their religion. "Indoctrinated" refers to being taught that you should not tell authorities the truth, that it is right and good to be a old man's sex toy when you are still a child. There was a recent ask for prayer time alone with the children (obvious time when the mothers are likely to be telling them not to tell the truth, getting their lies straight) without any people interfering. The judge ruled they'd have prayer sessions in morning and evening, with a Mormon monitor who could not interfere, but at the same time prevent any indoctrination or interference with the investigation.

This is not about stripping them of their religion, this is about stopping violations of the law, occurring under the guise of religion.

[Details]

A judge wants attorneys representing FLDS mothers and children to ask local LDS congregations if they would be willing to "provide a buffer" for FLDS members who wish to pray in groups at a temporary shelter.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272498,00.html


Apparently, the Bill of Rights is under suspension in Texas...you now have to have someone monitor your prayers.When you are a parent suspected of abuse - yes you do. This is normal for any CPS case. Letting a suspected abuser be alone, unobserved with a suspected abused child is just giving that abuser more time to guilt, threaten, and otherwise pressure the child to silence, to lies. Not to mention, to continue the abuse.

[Tracian]

When you are a parent suspected of abuse - yes you do. This is normal for any CPS case. Letting a suspected abuser be alone, unobserved with a suspected abused child is just giving that abuser more time to guilt, threaten, and otherwise pressure the child to silence, to lies. Not to mention, to continue the abuse.


What is the abuse they are suspected regarding the young children?

[Details]

If they knew the call was a hoax, then the law was bent, that is the allegation according to some media reports.

Waco was investigated before they moved in, Waco was about guns, and they had a real witness that they interviewed face to face about sexual abuse of children.

What danger did they see children in? Where there signs of beatings, starvation, were the living quarters filthy? Where the children poorly dressed in rags?They have never said they knew the call was a hoax before they went in (and that would indeed be a different situation). In fact, we still don't know that it is - the hoax caller called a different person, told a very different type of story, had very different methods. Nothing has even remotely suggested that they knew. They have said that while it was a spur to immediate action (child at risk), they knew a lot, were working on the case - they had an informant (who had not mentioned the underage marriages, but was feeding them information), they had the testimony of the Jeffs case, they had several former FLDS telling the whole story about the sexual and physical abuse of the children. They had a lot of investigation ongoing, a lot of information.

And abuse isn't always about filth and rags. Abusers come from sparkling clean homes with well dressed clean children, with smiles - because if they don't work day and night to keep the home clean, if they don't look pretty, if they don't smile, they get beaten. Not that this case (as you know - right?) is about that type of abuse. It's about sexual abuse, denying education and kicking out underage boyx, it's about the abuse of teaching a child that having sex is something that you do at any age, if told to - prepping and grooming them for a pedophile.Like I said, I don't agree with them, but in the inner cities, CPS does not take pregnant 13 year old girls away from their parents without investigation, and if that was done in the poor inner cities, there would be screaming of racism, targeting the poor, etc.

According to reports, many of these women are on Welfare, as single mothers, as this appears to be the case, why didn't case workers come in to do 'house checks', to ensure that welfare fraud was not going on? Why didn't they do child welfare checks?

As far as having sex outside marriage, you're correct, but if the state says the age of consent is 16, then that is the age of concent for everyone, whether they are FDLS or not. Don't like the law? then change it for everyone.

I just don't like that the end is justifying the means.The end is not justifying the means. Having sex with an underage minor is a crime for everyone, as plenty of guys can tell you. They enforce it for everyone, not just FLDS. And doctors are supposed to report when they see an underage pregnant girl. When it's determined that the parent is supporting, rather than fighting the underage sex, if the guy is not of a comparable age, the child can, and has been taken away - I remember several cases of this - the mother isn't willing to give up her pedophile boyfriend also having sex with the daughter, so the children are removed from that household. This is that - just on a larger scale.

Why not welfare checks? The cult doesn't welcome them, and out of an exaggerated deference to religion, they don't get forced. Not that I'm aware of any type of welfare check that goes to your house. Child welfare checks - that requires some complaint, some reason. I'm not understanding that bit - you seem concerned about civil liberties when they go into the compound with a completely reasonable concern of a child being abused, but then you talk like you think they should have been going into that compound without reason for welfare and child welfare checks - without any complaints. Which is it?

[Details]

I was watching Nancy Grace last night, and of course she is all for this action, a news break said that the call from 'Sara' was traced to Colorado, now I know as well as anyone here that it is not that hard to trace a call; further, the caller is identified as an African American woman, which also makes me wonder, since it has been reported that no African Americans are part of the sect.

Now, if this Sarah called from Colorado, why did the caller claim to being held in Texas? And since they discovered the call came from Colorado,(this is before they identified the caller) and there is a compound there, why didn't Texas LE notify Colorado and inform them that they may have an abused minor calling for help from that compound?That's a different Sara. There's the one known hoax calling Flora Jessup, and there's the other one, not known where she was calling from.

They have not been able to trace her call. She called an abuse hotline, not 911, they relayed the information to the police.

[Tracian]

When one chooses to go on government aid, they give up certain rights, one of which they can be subject to welfare checks, and home inspections to ensure that, for instance more people are not living in the home than reported to gain that aid, in fact when you go on aid you sign a wavier that random checks on the household can be done.

This sect does have many 'single mothers' on state aid, therefore, it is not just 'checking' it is the right of the state to protect themselves from fraudulent welfare recipients.

The age of consent is 17 in Texas, other states are as young as 14, so no, it is not always big trouble for having sex with a minor; the legal age to marry is 16 with parental consent. I am not defending this sect, I am speaking of the law, and IMO, it was bent in this case, when there were other ways to get the information through a proper investigation.

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

USA state by state is near the bottom.


As I posted, it is being speculated that the LE was aware that these calls came from Colorado, right in the beginning, where another compound is, has there been any information about informing the LE there that a child called for help from Colorado?

As far as abuse it has been reported that CPS saw signs of abuse, what abuse? What evidence? if the children are not talking, then they are assuming all the things you mentioned, but an assumption is not evidence.

And what are they going to do if the children do not support their assumptions? Just keep them away from their mothers because there religion is nutty? What about those sects that don't believe in medical care? They don't loose their children until they are caught doing something that they can prove, not the assumption that something might happen.

I am not defending the FLDS, I am however very concerned by the way this is being handled, basically as it stands right now, these mothers will not see their children unless they agree to abandon their religion; if a parent was kept from their child by a bible belt court because they refused to bring the child to church there would be an outcry. A wiccan mother lost custody because her christian exhusband and a christian judge decided that wicca was not a proper religion.

I will again say, this is not the only religion that prearranges young girls to marry or plural marriages, they are perhaps the most well known, but not the only ones by a long shot.

[Tracian]

That's a different Sara. There's the one known hoax calling Flora Jessup, and there's the other one, not known where she was calling from.

They have not been able to trace her call. She called an abuse hotline, not 911, they relayed the information to the police.


I will concede, because there is no transcript to the news break, but it seemed that they mentioned the Texas raid and then spoke of 'Sara' so I could have misunderstood.

[Tracian]

I will concede, because there is no transcript to the news break, but it seemed that they mentioned the Texas raid and then spoke of 'Sara' so I could have misunderstood.



http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8993150?source=rss


COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. -- A 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman who may have sparked a massive child-protection raid at a polygamist compound in Texas kept a steady job and gave no hint of her activities to those closest to her.


She is linked to this raid and other phone calls, that she was charged with making false police reports.

[Tracian]

In a statement released Friday, the ACLU said the situation has raised "serious and difficult issues regarding the sometimes competing rights of children and their parents."
Judge Barbara Walthers ruled Friday that the state had proved all the children were in imminent danger of being abused or neglected by their parents, who are members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The ACLU issued the statement after listening to some testimony but before the judge issued an order continuing state custody of the children.
"While we acknowledge that Judge Walthers' task may be unprecedented in Texas judicial history, we question whether the current proceedings adequately protect the fundamental rights of the mothers and children of the FLDS," Terri Burke, the ACLU's executive director, said in the statement.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8997731

[Tracian]

But the Texas raid removed children whose parents said they were adults when they entered plural marriages, as well as monogamous parents who consider plural marriage a religious tenet.
Michael Quinn, a historian and Mormon scholar, said social hysteria and Protestant revulsion against polygamy provide the backdrop for the Texas raid.
“It is very clear this attack is on plural marriage as a way of living,” Quinn said. The children's removal was a “blanket punishment of an entire group for alleged crimes of an individual. That is clearly something that could be appealed up the court system.”
Texas is in uncharted legal territory, said Douglas Laycock, a University of Michigan law professor who is an expert in religious liberty.
If there is abuse, religion is not a defense, he said. But, “It is an astonishing decision if it was based on what parents teach their children and how it may affect them years later,” he said. “That is very problematic. I don't think the state can just draw inferences from religious beliefs.”
Firmage said the FLDS have the opportunity to make “heroic law, even though they are not all heroic and some of them are criminals.”
Most great laws, he said, come for the “strangers among us” - the criminals, the immigrants, the minorities.
But he also hopes that the removal of the sect's children may do what individual prosecutions and property confiscations did not do: draw concessions from the FLDS concerning underage marriages. A expert testified last week that underage marriages are not universal among the FLDS.
“This is their time,” he said. “This is the most brutal way of learning it.”
As for polygamy, it's a a religious imperative for the FLDS and they won't likely give up the practice.
“They'll continue on,” Quinn said. “The same thing happened 55 years ago [in the Short Creek, Arizona, raid]. In some cases, it took three years for the parents to be reunited with their children.”
And this event, like that one, he said, will only entrench their sense of persecution.
“It will only reinforce their view that Satan operates through government,” Quinn said.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8989851

[cogito]

When you are a parent suspected of abuse - yes you do. This is normal for any CPS case. Letting a suspected abuser be alone, unobserved with a suspected abused child is just giving that abuser more time to guilt, threaten, and otherwise pressure the child to silence, to lies. Not to mention, to continue the abuse.

What specific incidences of abuse are they citing? ALL the mothers are separated from ALL the children? That's not a protection from abuse, that's religious persecution.

Did any young women come forward during the raid and say, "thank goodness you're here! They forced me to marry this old man!" Anything like that happen at this raid? If not, then why not? If the abuse was as wide spread and rampant as one would believe from the overkill here....certainly they'd have more to go on than a bogus phone call from a state 1000 miles away!

They took their cell phones away, They took their scriptures away, they turned away clean clothes and undergarments that were brought to the civic center and they took anther person away that was reading a sermon.....It sounds like religious persecution from almost every angle.

If they have some specific knowledg or specifically witnessed abuse...fine. But they haven't

[cogito]

One more thing...they came in BAPTIST buses to take them away...what? they city of San Angelo doesn't have school buses? They do...that was nothing more than a thinly veiled message from the Church of the Good Ol' Boy that runs things down in Texas....your religion isn't government-approved.

[Details]

When one chooses to go on government aid, they give up certain rights, one of which they can be subject to welfare checks, and home inspections to ensure that, for instance more people are not living in the home than reported to gain that aid, in fact when you go on aid you sign a wavier that random checks on the household can be done.But since these checks are rarely if ever done, to single out FLDS to check, as a means of seeing what is going on, would indeed be religion based persecution. I don't think that would be legitimate....The age of consent is 17 in Texas, other states are as young as 14, so no, it is not always big trouble for having sex with a minor; the legal age to marry is 16 with parental consent.It is legal to marry, then have sex, legally, with the 16 year old - only with a legal marriage license. Not the case with these pregnant teens. No marriage license....As I posted, it is being speculated that the LE was aware that these calls came from Colorado, right in the beginning, where another compound is, has there been any information about informing the LE there that a child called for help from Colorado? Nope - not a bit. Speculation - people love to speculate. Not a word that they could tell where the calls came from, had any information. The calls came into an abuse hotline, not run by police, they were informed by the people of the hotline what was going on. As far as abuse it has been reported that CPS saw signs of abuse, what abuse? What evidence? if the children are not talking, then they are assuming all the things you mentioned, but an assumption is not evidence.A pregnant teen is evidence. The records showing all the tons of pregnancies and births to underage girls (including our 16 year old with 4 children (IIRC, that's 4 pregnancies - no word that any of it was multiple births) and another pregnancy already started), the records of all the spiritual (not legal) marriages to young girls - that's all evidence of abuse. There's plenty more that has leaked out - a room full of babies unattended other than by a little girl, stuff like that, and there's what every singular escapee of the cult has to say happened to them and all of the children of the cult, there's the evidence, photographs, citations and such for FLDS using very young child labor - there is evidence. Children not talking, as we all know, is not an unusual thing for CPS to deal with - abusers always make sure their victims are told not to tell, with guilt or threats backing it up. There's evidence - no question of that!And what are they going to do if the children do not support their assumptions? Just keep them away from their mothers because there religion is nutty? What about those sects that don't believe in medical care? They don't loose their children until they are caught doing something that they can prove, not the assumption that something might happen.

I am not defending the FLDS, I am however very concerned by the way this is being handled, basically as it stands right now, these mothers will not see their children unless they agree to abandon their religion; if a parent was kept from their child by a bible belt court because they refused to bring the child to church there would be an outcry. A wiccan mother lost custody because her christian exhusband and a christian judge decided that wicca was not a proper religion.

I will again say, this is not the only religion that prearranges young girls to marry or plural marriages, they are perhaps the most well known, but not the only ones by a long shot.They don't have to abandon their religion. They only have to agree to stop the child abuse. They're already working on terms for that.

Yes, there are abuses elsewhere - abuses where a judge abuses power and allows prejudice to rule - that doesn't mean we need to never judge any religion because it might be abused - if pedophilia is OK, is shielded, should we ignore child sacrifice next? Not that this one is much different. I know you aren't saying pedophilia is OK - but what else do you mean by them being required to abandon their religion? There's been not a single word, not a single suggestion from anywhere that the judge, LE, nor anyone else has said the religion is the problem. Children given to old men for sex is the problem. Child abuse is the problem. NOT the religion.

And there may be other religious groups doing all kinds of bad stuff. They all need to be prevented from child abuse - period. But we can't do all of them simultaneously - you have to take it one at a time. Any religious group cloaking child abuse as a sacrament needs to be stopped. But just because we haven't stopped them all, we can't do anything to any of them? Must we set one day next year where every single religion that might be marrying children off is raided to be OK?

This is not the first time a religiously motivated bit of child abuse has been halted by authorities, it won't be the last. It's not particular to this one cult, nor to any religion, nor to religion at all. It's about child abuse. That's it.

[Tracian]

What specific incidences of abuse are they citing? ALL the mothers are separated from ALL the children? That's not a protection from abuse, that's religious persecution.

Did any young women come forward during the raid and say, "thank goodness you're here! They forced me to marry this old man!" Anything like that happen at this raid? If not, then why not? If the abuse was as wide spread and rampant as one would believe from the overkill here....certainly they'd have more to go on than a bogus phone call from a state 1000 miles away!



SAN ANGELO, Texas -- Mothers in the polygamous FLDS sect on Monday filed a motion for a temporary restraining order demanding access to attorneys, privacy in prayer and a halt to Texas child-welfare workers plans to separate them from their breast-feeding children.
Though filed specifically on behalf of four Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints mothers, the TRO is meant to include other mothers fighting to stop the state from taking their toddlers, who were taken from the sect's YFZ Ranch earlier this month.
Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) officials have repeatedly said they plan to separate all 416 children taken from the ranch -- including those under 2 who are currently breast-feeding -- once DNA testing determines maternity. That genetic screening began today. Texas Judge Barbara Walther set an afternoon hearing to further discuss the TRO motions.
The TRO also claims that since state officials have seized all cell phones from mothers and their children, they have no means to confer with attorneys. Further, despite CPS assurances that telephone access would be provided, that has yet to happen, the mothers argue.
State officials also have refused to provide mothers and children privacy to say their prayers, which the TRO argues is an unconstitutional intrusion on their right to practice their religion. "In one instance, it has
been reported that [CPS] workers . . . were vacuuming while the children attempted to pray. Without exception [the mothers] have reported that [CPS] will not let them pray without being monitored," the mothers claim.
The women insist they "have a right to pray without the watchful ears the department intruding" on a sacred religious rite. The TRO asks that the women be given 30 minutes of private prayer morning and night.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9002940

[Details]

I will concede, because there is no transcript to the news break, but it seemed that they mentioned the Texas raid and then spoke of 'Sara' so I could have misunderstood.There's tons of speculation that they're the same. But no solid information that I've seen yet. Just speculation. They are a fair bit different, but it could be the same, it could be not. She is a person of interest - they are investigating - but no proof, no evidence found yet.

[Tracian]

But since these checks are rarely if ever done, to single out FLDS to check, as a means of seeing what is going on, would indeed be religion based persecution. I don't think that would be legitimate.It is legal to marry, then have sex, legally, with the 16 year old - only with a legal marriage license. Not the case with these pregnant teens. No marriage license.Nope - not a bit. Speculation - people love to speculate. Not a word that they could tell where the calls came from, had any information. The calls came into an abuse hotline, not run by police, they were informed by the people of the hotline what was going on. A pregnant teen is evidence. The records showing all the tons of pregnancies and births to underage girls (including our 16 year old with 4 children (IIRC, that's 4 pregnancies - no word that any of it was multiple births) and another pregnancy already started), the records of all the spiritual (not legal) marriages to young girls - that's all evidence of abuse. There's plenty more that has leaked out - a room full of babies unattended other than by a little girl, stuff like that, and there's what every singular escapee of the cult has to say happened to them and all of the children of the cult, there's the evidence, photographs, citations and such for FLDS using very young child labor - there is evidence. Children not talking, as we all know, is not an unusual thing for CPS to deal with - abusers always make sure their victims are told not to tell, with guilt or threats backing it up. There's evidence - no question of that!They don't have to abandon their religion. They only have to agree to stop the child abuse. They're already working on terms for that.

Yes, there are abuses elsewhere - abuses where a judge abuses power and allows prejudice to rule - that doesn't mean we need to never judge any religion because it might be abused - if pedophilia is OK, is shielded, should we ignore child sacrifice next? Not that this one is much different. I know you aren't saying pedophilia is OK - but what else do you mean by them being required to abandon their religion? There's been not a single word, not a single suggestion from anywhere that the judge, LE, nor anyone else has said the religion is the problem. Children given to old men for sex is the problem. Child abuse is the problem. NOT the religion.

And there may be other religious groups doing all kinds of bad stuff. They all need to be prevented from child abuse - period. But we can't do all of them simultaneously - you have to take it one at a time. Any religious group cloaking child abuse as a sacrament needs to be stopped. But just because we haven't stopped them all, we can't do anything to any of them? Must we set one day next year where every single religion that might be marrying children off is raided to be OK?

This is not the first time a religiously motivated bit of child abuse has been halted by authorities, it won't be the last. It's not particular to this one cult, nor to any religion, nor to religion at all. It's about child abuse. That's it.


What abuse? These children were not being abused, it was the assumption of abuse, based on their religious teachings, I have just posted a bunch of articles.

[cogito]

But since these checks are rarely if ever done, to single out FLDS to check, as a means of seeing what is going on, would indeed be religion based persecution. I don't think that would be legitimate.It is legal to marry, then have sex, legally, with the 16 year old - only with a legal marriage license. Not the case with these pregnant teens. No marriage license.Nope - not a bit. Speculation - people love to speculate. Not a word that they could tell where the calls came from, had any information. The calls came into an abuse hotline, not run by police, they were informed by the people of the hotline what was going on. A pregnant teen is evidence. The records showing all the tons of pregnancies and births to underage girls (including our 16 year old with 4 children (IIRC, that's 4 pregnancies - no word that any of it was multiple births) and another pregnancy already started), the records of all the spiritual (not legal) marriages to young girls - that's all evidence of abuse. There's plenty more that has leaked out - a room full of babies unattended other than by a little girl, stuff like that, and there's what every singular escapee of the cult has to say happened to them and all of the children of the cult, there's the evidence, photographs, citations and such for FLDS using very young child labor - there is evidence. Children not talking, as we all know, is not an unusual thing for CPS to deal with - abusers always make sure their victims are told not to tell, with guilt or threats backing it up. There's evidence - no question of that!They don't have to abandon their religion. They only have to agree to stop the child abuse. They're already working on terms for that.

Yes, there are abuses elsewhere - abuses where a judge abuses power and allows prejudice to rule - that doesn't mean we need to never judge any religion because it might be abused - if pedophilia is OK, is shielded, should we ignore child sacrifice next? Not that this one is much different. I know you aren't saying pedophilia is OK - but what else do you mean by them being required to abandon their religion? There's been not a single word, not a single suggestion from anywhere that the judge, LE, nor anyone else has said the religion is the problem. Children given to old men for sex is the problem. Child abuse is the problem. NOT the religion.

And there may be other religious groups doing all kinds of bad stuff. They all need to be prevented from child abuse - period. But we can't do all of them simultaneously - you have to take it one at a time. Any religious group cloaking child abuse as a sacrament needs to be stopped. But just because we haven't stopped them all, we can't do anything to any of them? Must we set one day next year where every single religion that might be marrying children off is raided to be OK?

This is not the first time a religiously motivated bit of child abuse has been halted by authorities, it won't be the last. It's not particular to this one cult, nor to any religion, nor to religion at all. It's about child abuse. That's it.

A pregnant teen is evidence? Then you should take all the children in the inner cities because there's a lot of teen pregnancies there and you better believe that quite a few are the result of guys who are quite a bit older.

[Tracian]

SAN ANGELO, Texas - FLDS sect mothers who have been staying with their small children in state shelters will have to leave them behind as early as Monday.
Shari Pulliam, a spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services, said Saturday that once DNA samples are taken from children under age 5, the adult mothers will be separated from the children.
CPS will use genetic samples to figure out parentage of all of the children. Law enforcement took a handful of DNA swabs early in its investigation, but most remain to be done, she said.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8989852


Why would they make the mother's leave? I could understand if they are not the mothers, but why separate them from their children, when later in the article these women have said that they will leave their husbands, get jobs or whatever to be with their children.

I thought that the idea was that the women were victims as well, being raised such as they were, so why further punish those that want to be with their children and will do anything to remain with them.

[Details]

What specific incidences of abuse are they citing? ALL the mothers are separated from ALL the children? That's not a protection from abuse, that's religious persecution.

Did any young women come forward during the raid and say, "thank goodness you're here! They forced me to marry this old man!" Anything like that happen at this raid? If not, then why not? If the abuse was as wide spread and rampant as one would believe from the overkill here....certainly they'd have more to go on than a bogus phone call from a state 1000 miles away!

They took their cell phones away, They took their scriptures away, they turned away clean clothes and undergarments that were brought to the civic center and they took anther person away that was reading a sermon.....It sounds like religious persecution from almost every angle.

If they have some specific knowledg or specifically witnessed abuse...fine. But they haven'tThe specific abuse is plentiful. First - a pregnant underaged girl is proof of something wrong. A bunch of them, is proof of a pattern of abuse. A little investigation, some documents, and they've got a huge pattern. Or, you can ask the kids. They've been quoted - they don't believe there is any age too young - if you are ordered to marry, you marry. That's it. The abuse is in grooming the children to be pedophile fodder. The abuse is in grooming the boys to be pedophiles.

Most of the women are brainwashed - if you ever read anything from the women who have escaped, if you ever learn anything about abused women in general - you'd understand how hard it is to accept rescue. It applies to abused men too - remember that pedophile, and some were saying his victim must have liked it because he didn't try to escape? That's what happens with just a few years of abuse. These women have had a lifetime of it, raised by other women who have had a lifetime of it. They aren't going to speak up quickly. Some have indeed left - when allowed to choose to go back to the compound, or go to some other safe place, a few did choose to go elsewhere - they couldn't have chosen that if they were left in the compound.

[Details]

SAN ANGELO, Texas - FLDS sect mothers who have been staying with their small children in state shelters will have to leave them behind as early as Monday.
Shari Pulliam, a spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services, said Saturday that once DNA samples are taken from children under age 5, the adult mothers will be separated from the children.
CPS will use genetic samples to figure out parentage of all of the children. Law enforcement took a handful of DNA swabs early in its investigation, but most remain to be done, she said.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8989852

Why would they make the mother's leave? I could understand if they are not the mothers, but why separate them from their children, when later in the article these women have said that they will leave their husbands, get jobs or whatever to be with their children.

I thought that the idea was that the women were victims as well, being raised such as they were, so why further punish those that want to be with their children and will do anything to remain with them.Being a victim of abuse sadly does not mean that they do not continue the abuse, support the abusers as well. This is entirely normal - having a set of parents present, overseeing the children, talking privately with them without letting CPS hear is not. When investigating abuse, SUPERVISED visitation is the rule for the start.

The children lie. They give different names, won't answer questions - and the parents reinforce it, tell them not to talk, not to tell the truth. That's why no private prayer time - not because of the prayer, but because of what is said that is not prayer. The judge ruled he'd set up private prayer time, but only with someone monitoring it - LDS if they can get someone. That's not to stomp on their religion, it's to stop something that is NOT religion from happening.

[Details]

A pregnant teen is evidence? Then you should take all the children in the inner cities because there's a lot of teen pregnancies there and you better believe that quite a few are the result of guys who are quite a bit older.Yep, a pregnant teen is evidence - unless you think virgin birth is a plague on the FLDS compound. A pregnant teen is evidence, a bunch of them enough reason for a search warrent. Which was obtained, and found the marriage and birth records showing the enourmous pattern of very, very, very underage girls being married and having babies. Maybe they're all virgin birth?

Yes, when an underage girl gives birth, they do look to see if they can find out who the father is, because that is proof of sex, and that is proof of abuse - unless the father is just as young.

[Details]

.... The women insist they "have a right to pray without the watchful ears the department intruding" on a sacred religious rite. The TRO asks that the women be given 30 minutes of private prayer morning and night.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9002940Children are removed from a home for abuse. One of the parents suspected of abuse is demanding 30 minutes, twice a day of private time with the child, without anyone listening.

Whaddya think? Think anyone would buy this? But claim it is religion, and suddenly people are defending it. Nope. If they want to have a prayer, they can do it with people listening to what they say to the children. To be sure that it's a prayer, and not "If you tell them what we did to you, God will throw you into Hellfire forever".

[Details]

What abuse? These children were not being abused, it was the assumption of abuse, based on their religious teachings, I have just posted a bunch of articles.Based on pregnant teenagers. Based on how those pregnant teenagers confirm the story told by every person to escape or be thrown out of the cult. Based on how they fit the evidence in the Jeffs trial for assisting the rape of a 14 year old girl.

I've read all the articles - I read a ton on this story every day. This isn't religious persecution, it's a long overdue intervention on a group of child abusers and pedophiles - the information, the facts have been out forever on this group, it's just taken a long time to finally get someone to do something because the abuse was done in the name of religion.

[cogito]

Yep, a pregnant teen is evidence - unless you think virgin birth is a plague on the FLDS compound. A pregnant teen is evidence, a bunch of them enough reason for a search warrent. Which was obtained, and found the marriage and birth records showing the enourmous pattern of very, very, very underage girls being married and having babies. Maybe they're all virgin birth?

Yes, when an underage girl gives birth, they do look to see if they can find out who the father is, because that is proof of sex, and that is proof of abuse - unless the father is just as young.


But they don't do that. Neither are they going in and shutting down Catholic schools despite the wholesale abuse that has occured there.

The point is that they are blanketing an entire group of people. That's completely wrong. They should limit the prosecution to those whom they specifically have reason to suspect.

It's not enough for LE to say, "you're FLDS, therefore you must be married to or abusing young children" anymore than it would be enough to say. "You're Catholic, therefore you must be allowing your children to be abused by priests"

[cogito]

I want to add that it isn't even necessarily the taking of the children that bothers me. It is the fact that the women's cell phones were confiscated. If they wanted to prevent interaction between parent and child, all you have to do is take away the child's cell phone (if they had any). There was no viable reason I can see to take away the cell phone of the adults.

They refused to allow them to have personal prayers in private. They refused to allow one of the adults to read a sermon to other adults. They refused clean clothes and undergarments. They took away scriptures....they came and got them in Baptist buses.

None of that was designed to protect children. It was designed to intimidate and persecute someone of differing religious beliefs.

[StoneFox]

I want to add that it isn't even necessarily the taking of the children that bothers me. It is the fact that the women's cell phones were confiscated. If they wanted to prevent interaction between parent and child, all you have to do is take away the child's cell phone (if they had any). There was no viable reason I can see to take away the cell phone of the adults.

They refused to allow them to have personal prayers in private. They refused to allow one of the adults to read a sermon to other adults. They refused clean clothes and undergarments. They took away scriptures....they came and got them in Baptist buses.

None of that was designed to protect children. It was designed to intimidate and persecute someone of differing religious beliefs.

The phones were initially confiscated so the women couldn't contact the men.

I'm sure the state used the buses they could get. I think it is wonderful they used the nicer buses that are more comfortable to travel in.

Instead of putting the children in places where they won't have access to religion, CPS is doing the RIGHT thing by taking them to places where they will feel comfortable studying their bibles. One of the criteria for foster homes for these children is that the family has a religious affiliation so these kids will not have further culture shock. They study the same bible stories we all do. The only difference is they have an additional book call the Book of Mormon.

[StoneFox]

But they don't do that. Neither are they going in and shutting down Catholic schools despite the wholesale abuse that has occured there.

The point is that they are blanketing an entire group of people. That's completely wrong. They should limit the prosecution to those whom they specifically have reason to suspect.

It's not enough for LE to say, "you're FLDS, therefore you must be married to or abusing young children" anymore than it would be enough to say. "You're Catholic, therefore you must be allowing your children to be abused by priests"


I want to know why the men still hide. IMO, they KNOW what they were doing is WRONG. Why do they not stand up and profess their faith? Instead, they hide behind the women.

The only men who have spoken are men who have not married a minor child. All the others have left the compound. Some of these children were actually fathered by men who were put out of the church.

Some of these men are now coming forward to claim their children. Something they COULD NOT do while these children were on the compound. The fathers were forbidden to have any contact with their children.

One man has not seen his children since he was put out 3 years ago. He has come forward for DNA testing with the hope he can reunite with his children. This man has courage and love for his children. The men who hide are cowards and have no love for their children, IMO.

[Tracian]

Children are removed from a home for abuse. One of the parents suspected of abuse is demanding 30 minutes, twice a day of private time with the child, without anyone listening.

Whaddya think? Think anyone would buy this? But claim it is religion, and suddenly people are defending it. Nope. If they want to have a prayer, they can do it with people listening to what they say to the children. To be sure that it's a prayer, and not "If you tell them what we did to you, God will throw you into Hellfire forever".


I don't think that children that are still nursing are a risk to be coached to lie.

I don't think that if a woman is willing to leave the compound, leave her husband and get a job just so she can remain with her children should be further punished by being taken from them.

As far as that last statement about 'hellfire' that is again a preconceived notion, I always thought people were innocent until proved guilty.

[Tracian]

I want to know why the men still hide. IMO, they KNOW what they were doing is WRONG. Why do they not stand up and profess their faith? Instead, they hide behind the women.

The only men who have spoken are men who have not married a minor child. All the others have left the compound. Some of these children were actually fathered by men who were put out of the church.

Some of these men are now coming forward to claim their children. Something they COULD NOT do while these children were on the compound. The fathers were forbidden to have any contact with their children.

One man has not seen his children since he was put out 3 years ago. He has come forward for DNA testing with the hope he can reunite with his children. This man has courage and love for his children. The men who hide are cowards and have no love for their children, IMO.


This is exactly why each case should be heard according to its own merit. The state wants the judge to hear all these cases in mass, which is simply wrong, each case should be judged fairly according to the evidence as it is to that case.

Further, with the articles I have posted, some of these families are not involved in under-aged marriage or plural marriage, but do believe it is a religious tenant (regarding plural marriage), so they are being punished for their beliefs, not for a crime they personally committed.

[StoneFox]

This is exactly why each case should be heard according to its own merit. The state wants the judge to hear all these cases in mass, which is simply wrong, each case should be judged fairly according to the evidence as it is to that case.

Further, with the articles I have posted, some of these families are not involved in under-aged marriage or plural marriage, but do believe it is a religious tenant (regarding plural marriage), so they are being punished for their beliefs, not for a crime they personally committed.

Polygamy is a crime.

I believe one of the reasons the judge ordered the DNA tests is so each case can be heard individually. The state will not now who is at fault criminally until they can prove who the mothers and fathers are.

[Tracian]

Polygamy is a crime.

I believe one of the reasons the judge ordered the DNA tests is so each case can be heard individually. The state will not now who is at fault criminally until they can prove who the mothers and fathers are.


Not all those living on the compound where involved in plural marriage, I posted the article.

Polygamy is a crime, but is it a crime for a man to be married to one woman and have a child with a mistress? Is is a crime for that mistress to live in the same house with that man and his wife?

Only the first marriage is legal, the rest are 'spiritual' meaning not legal, the only reason polygamy is a crime, which is rarely if ever prosecuted, is because of other religious groups that opposed it back in the 1800's, had more political power than Mormons.

Now, I am not talking about forcing young girls into marriage, whether it is monogamous, or plural, but I find the hypocrisy of three adults that choose to 'marry' as long as they are not breaking any laws, or abusing the system, a 'crime' when a man could choose to have children with a mistress and face no crime what so ever, completely ridiculous and IMO amounts to religious persecution.

As far as hearing the cases separately, according to one of the many articles I posted, that is not what the state is pushing for, and it seems that the judge will favor the state, though that according to the article will make this case ripe for appeal.

As far as that final part, we will have to wait and see.

[cogito]

The phones were initially confiscated so the women couldn't contact the men.

I'm sure the state used the buses they could get. I think it is wonderful they used the nicer buses that are more comfortable to travel in.

Instead of putting the children in places where they won't have access to religion, CPS is doing the RIGHT thing by taking them to places where they will feel comfortable studying their bibles. One of the criteria for foster homes for these children is that the family has a religious affiliation so these kids will not have further culture shock. They study the same bible stories we all do. The only difference is they have an additional book call the Book of Mormon.

There's no reason for the women to not have communication with the men since it was the CHILDREN the CPS was alledgedly interested in.

The state used a Baptist bus to send a message. I'm pretty sure that there are school buses in San Angelo.

They're making sure they are with people who have a religious affiliation that rabidly preaches against their religion and The Book of Mormon....not really a pleasant atmosphere. What do you think some Baptist family is going to do if a child asks to read the Book of Mormon or The Doctrine and Covenants.? You think that they'll leave them in peace to study the scriptures of THIER religion? Highly doubtful since they spend so much energy and time preaching against those scriptures.




You can paint it up all you'd like but the truth is that this is religious persecution.

[awakening2lite]

Let's not lose site of the fact this case is about the sexual abuse of young girls. It's not about polygamy, that just happens to be the setting where the alleged abuse took place.

They are trying each custody case separately and each child has their own attorney (volunteer) who is acting as guardian ad litem to the child. They want to ensure each child's rights are protected and that the best interests of each child is carried out.

DNA tests have been ordered to determine whose child is whose because the children reportedly name several mothers and it isn't clear who is the parent of the child. This is important, especially for the children not to be claimed by someone other than their biological parent.

[Tracian]

About 'reading the same bible stories' I have to disagree with that, only because all religions interpret the Bible slightly different, they have their own 'spin' on what scripture means, this is why there are so many different religions. (when I say spin, it is not meant as a dig or insult)

[Tracian]

Let's not lose site of the fact this case is about the sexual abuse of young girls. It's not about polygamy, that just happens to be the setting where the alleged abuse took place.

They are trying each custody case separately and each child has their own attorney (volunteer) who is acting as guardian ad litem to the child. They want to ensure each child's rights are protected and that the best interests of each child is carried out.

DNA tests have been ordered to determine whose child is whose because the children reportedly name several mothers and it isn't clear who is the parent of the child. This is important, especially for the children not to be claimed by someone other than their biological parent.


I have posted several articles, and I will once again submit that taking babies from nursing mothers, separating those mothers that are willing to leave the compound, and husbands, are willing to find jobs, from their children is a simply wrong.

Further, once again according to one of the articles I posted, it seems that the state is pushing to hear this case en-mass, lumping them all together, and it is speculated that the judge may do just that.

Also, they have to find evidence of abuse, and only those involved with the abuse should be brought up on charges, not everyone simply because they are guilty by association.

[awakening2lite]

There's no reason for the women to not have communication with the men since it was the CHILDREN the CPS was alledgedly interested in.

The state used a Baptist bus to send a message. I'm pretty sure that there are school buses in San Angelo.

They're making sure they are with people who have a religious affiliation that rabidly preaches against their religion and The Book of Mormon....not really a pleasant atmosphere. What do you think some Baptist family is going to do if a child asks to read the Book of Mormon or The Doctrine and Covenants.? You think that they'll leave them in peace to study the scriptures of THIER religion? Highly doubtful since they spend so much energy and time preaching against those scriptures.




You can paint it up all you'd like but the truth is that this is religious persecution.

They removed the cell phone to prevent witness tampering.
Link: http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905&page=17
see article in post 167

[cogito]

They removed the cell phone to prevent witness tampering.
Link: http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905&page=17
see article in post 167

What's the reason for refusing them clean clothes and undergarments? What's the reason for taking away their scriptures? What's the reason for insisting that that the children go to homes of religions known to openly preach against theirs?

[Tracian]

Just reported, the nursing mothers will not be allowed to continue breast feeding their children.


*Reported on courtside*

[cogito]

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that Israel went into the Palestinian neighborhoods and forcibly took all the children since some were being raised to believe that being a suicide bomber was the way into heaven...then lets say that Israel further insisted that these children be taken into foster care with only Zionist families....You think that maybe people would be upset and cry 'foul'?


That's what we're looking at here.

[awakening2lite]

I have posted several articles, and I will once again submit that taking babies from nursing mothers, separating those mothers that are willing to leave the compound, and husbands, are willing to find jobs, from their children is a simply wrong.

Further, once again according to one of the articles I posted, it seems that the state is pushing to hear this case en-mass, lumping them all together, and it is speculated that the judge may do just that.

Also, they have to find evidence of abuse, and only those involved with the abuse should be brought up on charges, not everyone simply because they are guilty by association.

It's an on going investigation, from what has been reported.
They removed the children because authorities believe they were in danger of on going abuse or future abuse.
See post #297
Link: http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905&page=30

Did they do the right thing? I think their hearts were in the right places in trying to prevent child sexual abuse. I think sometimes social services act too slowly and catch heat for that at the expense of the child. But we'll find out soon, if they overreacted in this case or if they were correct in removing the children.

[awakening2lite]

What's the reason for refusing them clean clothes and undergarments? What's the reason for taking away their scriptures? What's the reason for insisting that that the children go to homes of religions known to openly preach against theirs?

I can't find confirmation of that story, do you have a link?

[ra moon]

Sorry to be O/T. but does any one here know what happened to the "other" message board.? I missed yesterday, and now can't find the link on the main page. I've been trying to follow the plight of these children and the DNA testing. TY in advance.

[awakening2lite]

Sorry to be O/T. but does any one here know what happened to the "other" message board.? I missed yesterday, and now can't find the link on the main page. I've been trying to follow the plight of these children and the DNA testing. TY in advance.

It's in the Child Abuse, Family Violence & Violence Against Women
http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?p=198355#post198355

[ra moon]

QUOTE=awakening2lite;198356]It's in the Child Abuse, Family Violence & Violence Against Women
http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?p=198355#post198355[/QUOTE]

Thanks so much, I thought I was way out of line!!:howdy:

[awakening2lite]

QUOTE=awakening2lite;198356]It's in the Child Abuse, Family Violence & Violence Against Women
http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?p=198355#post198355

Thanks so much, I thought I was way out of line!!:howdy:[/QUOTE]

You're very welcome. Glad to help.

[cogito]

I can't find confirmation of that story, do you have a link?

FLDS members said Texas authorities rejected their offers of personal clothing for the women and children staying at the coliseum and nearby Wells Fargo Pavilion.

An FLDS man said he tried to deliver a U-Haul full of the personal items nearly two weeks ago. "They returned everything," he told the Deseret News

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272416,00.html

[awakening2lite]

FLDS members said Texas authorities rejected their offers of personal clothing for the women and children staying at the coliseum and nearby Wells Fargo Pavilion.

An FLDS man said he tried to deliver a U-Haul full of the personal items nearly two weeks ago. "They returned everything," he told the Deseret News

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272416,00.html

Thanks, cog!

I can't say with certainty, but just because it is reported cps refused clothing doesn't mean the children are in dirty clothes.

[Tracian]

Thanks, cog!

I can't say with certainty, but just because it is reported cps refused clothing doesn't mean the children are in dirty clothes.


I think it is cruel. I am not saying those children are wearing dirty clothes, but IMO they are being treated like criminals, not children that they want to protect.

[awakening2lite]

I think it is cruel. I am not saying those children are wearing dirty clothes, but IMO they are being treated like criminals, not children that they want to protect.

Cruel? Are they being subjected to treatment below the cps standards for children in their protection?

[Texas53]

FLDS members said Texas authorities rejected their offers of personal clothing for the women and children staying at the coliseum and nearby Wells Fargo Pavilion.

An FLDS man said he tried to deliver a U-Haul full of the personal items nearly two weeks ago. "They returned everything," he told the Deseret News

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272416,00.html

I live down here in Texas and hadn't heard that. Reports are on every night because some of the children have been shipped here. Any women with small babies and babies that are nursing are with those children. If a mother chose to go back to the commune instead of stay with her baby, thats a different situation. If its known for certain that children are brothers and sisters they are being kept together. As for the clothes being rejected, I doubt they would be rejected, believe me. Thats 400 plus kids more then CPS usually ever takes into custody at any one time. I do know for a fact that when children out taken into custody and someone takes clothes to the CPS office, they are taken on to the child.

You have to remember the FLDS are trying to get public sympathy so stories are being put out there by some of their own people.

As for Foster homes, no children are being placed. They are in children's shelters and are to undergo psychological observation and questioning. When their hearings come up, they will be transported back to San Angelo.

[cogito]

Thanks, cog!

I can't say with certainty, but just because it is reported cps refused clothing doesn't mean the children are in dirty clothes.


The point being that there is a pervasive wholesale "everyone here is a criminal until we say otherwise" attitude that, at its core is anti-american. The people of The State of Texas are allowing their prejudices against an obscure group of people permit them to make assumptions and decisions that they would NEVER make against another group.

I've looked and can find NOTHING that the State of Texas has made in the way of concessions towards these people. They have, in fact, gone out of their way to refuse them and to make them understand (baptist buses when school buses would have been just as easy) that this isn't about the children but rather because they don't belong to a mainstream Christian Church of the Good Ol' Boy.

I grew up in Texas and I know just how sneakily and underhandedly, the Baptists go about excluding and targetting any religion that they don't like.

[Tracian]

I live down here in Texas and hadn't heard that. Reports are on every night because some of the children have been shipped here. Any women with small babies and babies that are nursing are with those children. If a mother chose to go back to the commune instead of stay with her baby, thats a different situation. If its known for certain that children are brothers and sisters they are being kept together. As for the clothes being rejected, I doubt they would be rejected, believe me. Thats 400 plus kids more then CPS usually ever takes into custody at any one time. I do know for a fact that when children out taken into custody and someone takes clothes to the CPS office, they are taken on to the child.

You have to remember the FLDS are trying to get public sympathy so stories are being put out there by some of their own people.

As for Foster homes, no children are being placed. They are in children's shelters and are to undergo psychological observation and questioning. When their hearings come up, they will be transported back to San Angelo.


Courtside just reported today that the mothers with nursing children have been separated, and that TRO's were filed to reverse that order.

[cogito]

I live down here in Texas and hadn't heard that. Reports are on every night because some of the children have been shipped here. Any women with small babies and babies that are nursing are with those children. If a mother chose to go back to the commune instead of stay with her baby, thats a different situation. If its known for certain that children are brothers and sisters they are being kept together. As for the clothes being rejected, I doubt they would be rejected, believe me. Thats 400 plus kids more then CPS usually ever takes into custody at any one time. I do know for a fact that when children out taken into custody and someone takes clothes to the CPS office, they are taken on to the child.

You have to remember the FLDS are trying to get public sympathy so stories are being put out there by some of their own people.

As for Foster homes, no children are being placed. They are in children's shelters and are to undergo psychological observation and questioning. When their hearings come up, they will be transported back to San Angelo.

Texas is a big place...I didn't hear everything when I lived down their either....doesn't mean it didn't happen

[Texas53]

Courtside just reported today that the mothers with nursing children have been separated, and that TRO's were filed to reverse that order.


Here is the San Angelo Paper Link and update as of 12:36p. It also has links to all the FLDS goings on.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/fairgrounds-busy-but-no-children-moved-from/

Appears kids 5 and above were some that were moved yesterday. No others have been moved today.

[awakening2lite]

The point being that there is a pervasive wholesale "everyone here is a criminal until we say otherwise" attitude that, at its core is anti-american. The people of The State of Texas are allowing their prejudices against an obscure group of people permit them to make assumptions and decisions that they would NEVER make against another group.

I've looked and can find NOTHING that the State of Texas has made in the way of concessions towards these people. They have, in fact, gone out of their way to refuse them and to make them understand (baptist buses when school buses would have been just as easy) that this isn't about the children but rather because they don't belong to a mainstream Christian Church of the Good Ol' Boy.

I grew up in Texas and I know just how sneakily and underhandedly, the Baptists go about excluding and targetting any religion that they don't like.

I don't think it is fair to judge the entire population of Texas as if they acted in concert.
Until, I read credited reports that Texas is treating these children and their family unfair when compared to others in the care of cps, I'll reserve judgment.

My personal feeling is to admire those who seek to end child sexual abuse.

The courtroom will make the final evaluation.

[Texas53]

Texas is a big place...I didn't hear everything when I lived down their either....doesn't mean it didn't happen


Cog, I still don't believe the baloney on the clothes. Our state doesn't have the funds to refuse clothing. I am betting the dude who told that story was trying to get to some of the wives and they wouldn't allow him access.

I also posted the San Angelo paper link above in another post.

JMHO

[Tracian]

Here is the San Angelo Paper Link and update as of 12:36p. It also has links to all the FLDS goings on.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/fairgrounds-busy-but-no-children-moved-from/

Appears kids 5 and above were some that were moved yesterday. No others have been moved today.


I have already posted a bunch of articles regarding this case, and like I said, the mothers with nursing babies will be separated, that is why the TRO's were filed, Courtside also confirmed this on their show.

It has also been reported that once the DNA come back, the mothers that chose to stay with their children will be separated from them, the links to the stories are a few pages back.

[Texas53]

I don't think it is fair to judge the entire population of Texas as if they acted in concert.
Until, I read credited reports that Texas is treating these children and their family unfair when compared to others in the care of cps, I'll reserve judgment.

My personal feeling is to admire those who seek to end child sexual abuse.

The courtroom will make the final evaluation.

You are correct. There are subpeonas issued to check to see where the $100 million trust money for the sect went. It appears it may have been drained.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/subpoenas-to-see-whether-sects-100m-trust-was-to/

[awakening2lite]

You are correct. There are subpeonas issued to check to see where the $100 million trust money for the sect went. It appears it may have been drained.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/23/subpoenas-to-see-whether-sects-100m-trust-was-to/

And there's more on the Trust connection and Utah and FBI here:

http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905&page=27
Child Abuse and Family Violence forum

[Tracian]

Child welfare officials this afternoon have sent away six empty buses that pulled into the San Angelo Coliseum where FLDS children now in state custody are being housed.
A spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services says there will likely be no movement of children from the Coliseum today. District Judge Barbara Walther is scheduled to meet with CPS officials in court this afternoon for an update on foster care placements.
Yesterday, 111 children ages 5 and older left the Coliseum for temporary homes located throughout the state. Authorities have said siblings under age 5 will be placed together, and attempts will be made to place older siblings together.
Authorities late Tuesday finished taking DNA samples from all the children. The attorney general's office sent 10 technicians on Monday to the Coliseum to take the court-ordered samples as child welfare officials try to sort out the complicated family relationships at the compound. Roughly 500 samples were taken.
Spokeswoman Janece Rolfe said the testing at the coliseum was completed late Tuesday, but technicians are still taking samples from parents in Eldorado.
The removal of the children is the latest blow to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whose YFZ Ranch near Eldorado was raided earlier this month. The raid was
prompted by calls to a local shelter from someone claiming to be a 16-year-old girl being abused by her FLDS husband.
Attorneys representing the sect have protested the removal of the children, and as recently as yesterday asked Judge Walther to keep them within a five-county area. Those requests were denied.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9026403

[cogito]

I don't think it is fair to judge the entire population of Texas as if they acted in concert.
Until, I read credited reports that Texas is treating these children and their family unfair when compared to others in the care of cps, I'll reserve judgment.

My personal feeling is to admire those who seek to end child sexual abuse.

The courtroom will make the final evaluation.


I am 7th generation Native Texan and a mainstream LDS member. I have as much reason to dislike the FLDS as anyone. After all, it's their antics that cause me and members of my church to have their homes vandalized...

http://www.ksat.com/news/15962840/detail.html

That said, I'm also not blind to the ways and power of the Baptists in Texas...you think that Waco was an anomoly? That compound didn't become an object of interest to the community until a wealthy woman who had left her money to the Baptist church joined the Branch Davidians and changed her will. When she died, the courts made the Branch Davidians bring her body to the courthouse. (I saw that on The History Channel...I'm still looking for the link)...the point being that, in Texas, it is dangerous to be anything other than a ATF/CPS approved religion.

There's too many Good Ol' Boys in power who go to church on Sunday and hear their pastors talk about how evil these other churches are. Human nature being what it is, there will ALWAYS be those people who will be willing to bend the constitution or even break it for what they consider to be the greater good.

[Texas53]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5724209.html

There were 114 kids removed yesterday who were between the ages of 5 to 17. They attorneys are back in court today to get them moved back to San Angelo.

Whether the call was fake or not, Texas LE stumbled on something that no one could have thought possible when they went to check it out. If LE didn't respond, they would be catching all hell. They did respond and now its one of the biggest messes in the United States (at least in the terms of possibly sexually abused girls).

Anytime kids are removed from a home, the parents and kids have to be separated so that the parents cannot coach the kids into lying for them. So far as anyone knows, the nursing babies are with their mothers.

[Texas53]

I am 7th generation Native Texan and a mainstream LDS member. I have as much reason to dislike the FLDS as anyone. After all, it's their antics that cause me and members of my church to have their homes vandalized...

http://www.ksat.com/news/15962840/detail.html

That said, I'm also not blind to the ways and power of the Baptists in Texas...you think that Waco was an anomoly? That compound didn't become an object of interest to the community until a wealthy woman who had left her money to the Baptist church joined the Branch Davidians and changed her will. When she died, the courts made the Branch Davidians bring her body to the courthouse. (I saw that on The History Channel...I'm still looking for the link)...the point being that, in Texas, it is dangerous to be anything other than a ATF/CPS approved religion.

There's too many Good Ol' Boys in power who go to church on Sunday and hear their pastors talk about how evil these other churches are. Human nature being what it is, there will ALWAYS be those people who will be willing to bend the constitution or even break it for what they consider to be the greater good.

Cog, there were also a stash of weapons in that compound (Waco). I don't agree with how the Waco mess came out. Both the Davidians and LE families lost loved ones that day. It never should have happened. Also you know that the squeakiest wheel gets the oil.

Don't think of everyone down here in Texas being like George W. Bush and trying to bend the constitution (besides he is NOT a native Texan). I understand the comment about the Baptists because I lived in the mist of them in East Texas. I was told if I wasn't baptized at 6 yrs old in the Baptist Church by my aunt, that I would die and go to Hell. I'm not a Baptist and I don't believe I will go to Hell because I am not one. However, many things down here have gotten better.

[Tracian]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5724209.html

There were 114 kids removed yesterday who were between the ages of 5 to 17. They attorneys are back in court today to get them moved back to San Angelo.

Whether the call was fake or not, Texas LE stumbled on something that no one could have thought possible when they went to check it out. If LE didn't respond, they would be catching all hell. They did respond and now its one of the biggest messes in the United States (at least in the terms of possibly sexually abused girls).

Anytime kids are removed from a home, the parents and kids have to be separated so that the parents cannot coach the kids into lying for them. So far as anyone knows, the nursing babies are with their mothers.


In my experience working with CPS, they do not cut the children completely away, they allow at the very least supervised visits, these kids do not show any signs of physical abuse, or at least not that has been reported, so just for the sake of the children, how emotionally healthy is it to rip them away from their home and their parents, especially when you do consider these children have lived apart from the outside world, it must be terrifying for them.

I don't understand how in one breath CPS said they need DNA to figure out who is related to who, but then say that they are keeping siblings together while they ship these kids all over Texas, as according to the link I offered, the Judge refused the request to keep the kids in a 5 county area.

I heard that the nursing mothers have been separated from their babies, if this turns out to be true, that is going to be a major issue for me, as there is no way a baby can be coached to lie; IMO should they do this, it is just legalized kidnapping and child cruelty.

[Texas53]

The reason they need DNA is because most times once a child is born they are passed on to another family in the compound. Also there were no birth records, marriages licenses, etc. that could be found in the compound. Some of the kids admittedly don't know how old they are or who their actual mothers and dads are.

The DNA can prove who fathered and mothered. For those that the age is known, it can also show which underage girls were impregnated. Once that is determined, I bet the FLDS leave the state asap in order not to be convicted.

If there is a complaint of physical abuse or sexual abuse, the parents are completely separated until the investigation is concluded. If no abuse is shown, they will be returned back to the parents.

[Tracian]

The reason they need DNA is because most times once a child is born they are passed on to another family in the compound. Also there were no birth records, marriages licenses, etc. that could be found in the compound. Some of the kids admittedly don't know how old they are or who their actual mothers and dads are.

The DNA can prove who fathered and mothered. For those that the age is known, it can also show which underage girls were impregnated. Once that is determined, I bet the FLDS leave the state asap in order not to be convicted.

If there is a complaint of physical abuse or sexual abuse, the parents are completely separated until the investigation is concluded.


But the reporting complaint was bogus; and I am not aware of any complaints made by those removed from the compound, and if that was the case, then why did they allow some of the mothers to stay at all?

In California, they do not do a clean break without evidence, the most time a child would be separated without supervised visitation would be a week unless criminal charges where filed.

[Texas53]

Its not been determined if the call was bogus or not. That is still being investigated. If the call was bogus, then the caller knew too much about what would be found when LE when out to the compound.

When LE gets a call like that here, they have to check it out. When they did, thats why they found what they did on that compound. The first hearings held involved did show a complaint had been filed. Believe me, 400 plus attorneys are not going to show up pro bono in San Angelo if they are not needed, unless its a Bar Convention!

The mothers who did stay at the shelter did so of their own accord. The others went back to the compound. From what I understand the women who didn't go back, don't want to go back.

[cogito]

Actually, the reason that they need DNA is to find birth mothers and fathers.

I cannot speak to the FLDS but, from the readings I have of journals when plural marriage was practiced by the mainstream LDS, the women consider themselves sisters and that all the children are theirs. Young children bond with all the women as mothers and caretakers. I would not doubt that the feelings about that are very strong. I was six years old when I punched out a teacher who kept insisting that my brother was only my half brother since he was my mother's son from a previous marriage. I was never raised to consider him anything else than a full brother.

Young children can be very traumatized when their perceptions of their family are challenged.

[cogito]

Its not been determined if the call was bogus or not. That is still being investigated. If the call was bogus, then the caller knew too much about what would be found when LE when out to the compound.

When LE gets a call like that here, they have to check it out. When they did, thats why they found what they did on that compound. The first hearings held involved did show a complaint had been filed. Believe me, 400 plus attorneys are not going to show up pro bono in San Angelo if they are not needed, unless its a Bar Convention!

The mothers who did stay at the shelter did so of their own accord. The others went back to the compound. From what I understand the women who didn't go back, don't want to go back.


This reminds me of how Ann Frank and her family were caught. A burgler was robbing the house that they were in and he turned them in.

[awakening2lite]

But the reporting complaint was bogus; and I am not aware of any complaints made by those removed from the compound, and if that was the case, then why did they allow some of the mothers to stay at all?

In California, they do not do a clean break without evidence, the most time a child would be separated without supervised visitation would be a week unless criminal charges where filed.

Frequently, the victim of abuse does not complain.

Here's a link to a discussion of cps finding several girls under 17 pregnant and or already parent to a child.
Link: http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905&page=37
post #363

Children having children in a system that is promoting it is children sexual abuse.

[cogito]

Frequently, the victim of abuse does not complain.

Here's a link to a discussion of cps finding several girls under 17 pregnant and or already parent to a child.
Link: http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905&page=37
post #363

Children having children in a system that is promoting it is children sexual abuse.

If they don't have the DNA tests in...how can they tell that they are a parent?

[awakening2lite]

If they don't have the DNA tests in...how can they tell that they are a parent?

If they are pregnant, it's obvious, if not, they may be the nursing moms. DNA will confirm it.

[Texas53]

Well good or bad, here it is: Sexual abuse of a 15 yr old "wife" was reported to LE. (In Texas, even with parents consent, a minor cannot legally marry until age 16.Its against the law in Texas). At this time, the call has NOT been proven to be bogus. It is still being investigated.

1. Does LE check it out or do nothing?
2. If they do nothing, underage girls (as in this case) are being sexually abused by men who use the excuse of their religion. The whole country will be pissed off AND these LE officers can lose their jobs for not doing their job.
3. They are bound by Texas Law to remove any and all children found when physical or sexual abuse is suspected and placed in temporary care until an investigation can be done and completed. So they did there job, and people are still complaining.

4. Bottom line: If the possibility of sexual abuse is happening, do you look out for the child and get them out of the situation even temporarily, or turn your back and do nothing?

[Details]

If they are pregnant, it's obvious, if not, they may be the nursing moms. DNA will confirm it.And if they have ever had a child, the simplest physical exam will show that (stretch marks don't lie). But I suspect they simply asked. FLDS members are not ashamed of being mothers - quite the contrary.

[Details]

But they don't do that. Neither are they going in and shutting down Catholic schools despite the wholesale abuse that has occured there.

The point is that they are blanketing an entire group of people. That's completely wrong. They should limit the prosecution to those whom they specifically have reason to suspect.

It's not enough for LE to say, "you're FLDS, therefore you must be married to or abusing young children" anymore than it would be enough to say. "You're Catholic, therefore you must be allowing your children to be abused by priests"Wholesale abuse? Where and when did you ever see wholesale abuse at Catholic schools? Any of them, let alone all of them in general. Sorry - if you can say that, you are letting biases filter your perception. A small percentage (too large, but still small) of Catholic priests abused a small percentage (far too large, but still small) of children - usually altar boys. That's not wholesale abuse. this is.

They have a reason to suspect the entire group, and that reason was confirmed by pregnant teens and teenage mothers, that reason was confirmed further by the cult's own records. They have reason to suspect everyone because everyone there lives under the total control of Jeffs and the cult, and that is what the cult does to children.

[cogito]

And you people really think that they did all that questioning and looking for stretch marks there in the compound?

Gee...with tanks and machine guns and all!:71526:

[Texas53]

Cog, they are not going after one group of people. A phone call was made to LE as an emergency of a situation in progress.

As for Priest abuse, etc., those situations were not handled by LE because it had to do with past behavior that was kept secret. You are trying to compare apples and oranges here.

We don't have enough LE down here because of cuts. So I doubt they all of a sudden decided "lets go raid that FLDS compound and see whats out there. We don't have anything else to do"

[cogito]

Wholesale abuse? Where and when did you ever see wholesale abuse at Catholic schools? Any of them, let alone all of them in general. Sorry - if you can say that, you are letting biases filter your perception. A small percentage (too large, but still small) of Catholic priests abused a small percentage (far too large, but still small) of children - usually altar boys. That's not wholesale abuse. this is.

They have a reason to suspect the entire group, and that reason was confirmed by pregnant teens and teenage mothers, that reason was confirmed further by the cult's own records. They have reason to suspect everyone because everyone there lives under the total control of Jeffs and the cult, and that is what the cult does to children.

According to the news reports, there are quite a few former alter boys that would disagree with you.

[Details]

I want to add that it isn't even necessarily the taking of the children that bothers me. It is the fact that the women's cell phones were confiscated. If they wanted to prevent interaction between parent and child, all you have to do is take away the child's cell phone (if they had any). There was no viable reason I can see to take away the cell phone of the adults.

They refused to allow them to have personal prayers in private. They refused to allow one of the adults to read a sermon to other adults. They refused clean clothes and undergarments. They took away scriptures....they came and got them in Baptist buses.

None of that was designed to protect children. It was designed to intimidate and persecute someone of differing religious beliefs.The child is in the same room with the adult - the mothers needed no cell phone on the child to contact him or her. It was to prevent interaction between the men and the children via the women. Once the mothers were not with the children, they can have as many cell phones as they like.

Prayers in private can also be intimidation, instruction, guilt, in private. Suspected abusers are not ever supposed to be alone with the suspected victim. Let alone twice a day.

The buses - whatever - it was the ones they had access to, or whatever. This is not a large town, transporting 400 children is no simple task.


And if the differing religious belief didn't include wholesale child abuse, with underage sex, discarding children and child labor, they'd be left alone. This isn't about religious belief, it's about breaking the law and child abuse. Calling child abuse a part of your religion does not give you immunity from following the same laws as everyone else.

[cogito]

Cog, they are not going after one group of people. A phone call was made to LE as an emergency of a situation in progress.

As for Priest abuse, etc., those situations were not handled by LE because it had to do with past behavior that was kept secret. You are trying to compare apples and oranges here.

No I'm not. There is a definate pattern of abuse that permeates the Catholic church. Virtually every altar boy is at risk. Especially when the church has been known to ship pederast priests from one parish to another.Why are the children not being ripped from their homes?

[Tracian]

Frequently, the victim of abuse does not complain.

Here's a link to a discussion of cps finding several girls under 17 pregnant and or already parent to a child.
Link: http://helpfindthemissing.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3905&page=37
post #363

Children having children in a system that is promoting it is children sexual abuse.


I am confused, I thought it was reported that they cannot confirm the ages because most of the children don't have BCs and do not give the right age or different ages when questioned.

Further the age of concent in Tx is 16 including marrige with parental consent.

[Texas53]

No I'm not. There is a definate pattern of abuse that permeates the Catholic church. Virtually every altar boy is at risk. Especially when the church has been known to ship pederast priests from one parish to another.Why are the children not being ripped from their homes?

Cog, NONE of the alter boys called the police that they were just raped.

A phone call was made to 911 for LE by a teen girl on the compound.

So yes, that is 2 different situations altogether.

I am not condoning the church for the Priest mess. But I don't condone any man who has sex with underage girls or boys either!

[awakening2lite]

EXCERPT

The state won the right to put the children in foster care on suspicion that FLDS members pushed underage girls into marriage and sex and that all the children raised in the church are in danger of being victims or becoming predators.

source: http://www.onenewsnow.com/Headlines/Default.aspx?id=77296


Imagine the screams and yelling and law suits that would have occured if the state looked the other way and did nothing.

If I am to err, let it on the side that favors putting an end to a child being abused.

[cogito]

I am confused, I thought it was reported that they cannot confirm the ages because most of the children don't have BCs and do not give the right age or different ages when questioned.

Further the age of concent in Tx is 16 including marrige with parental consent.


True enough..

[awakening2lite]

I am confused, I thought it was reported that they cannot confirm the ages because most of the children don't have BCs and do not give the right age or different ages when questioned.

Further the age of concent in Tx is 16 including marrige with parental consent.

You need to read the entire reference.

[cogito]

Cog, NONE of the alter boys called the police that they were just raped.

A phone call was made to 911 for LE by a teen girl on the compound.

So yes, that is 2 different situations altogether.

I am not condoning the church for the Priest mess. But I don't condone any man who has sex with underage girls or boys either!


Okay...I see how it works....all I have to do is call an abuse hotline, put on my little boy voice and say that the priest is molesting me.....

THEN we'll see LE swooping in and taking all the catholic children and their moms away from their homes.

[Texas53]

Lets give the kids back to the compound and let the sexual abuse continue. Who cares? Its their problem what they do to their people. Right?

Thats what its getting down to, right?

[cogito]

Lets give the kids back to the compound and let the sexual abuse continue. Who cares? Its their problem what they do to their people. Right?

Thats what its getting down to, right?

No...what needs to happen is that CPS needs to request and grant court-ordered visits to the compound. Regular visits would allow CPS to view and see any abuses and act upon them individually.

[awakening2lite]

The child is in the same room with the adult - the mothers needed no cell phone on the child to contact him or her. It was to prevent interaction between the men and the children via the women. Once the mothers were not with the children, they can have as many cell phones as they like.

Prayers in private can also be intimidation, instruction, guilt, in private. Suspected abusers are not ever supposed to be alone with the suspected victim. Let alone twice a day.

The buses - whatever - it was the ones they had access to, or whatever. This is not a large town, transporting 400 children is no simple task.


And if the differing religious belief didn't include wholesale child abuse, with underage sex, discarding children and child labor, they'd be left alone. This isn't about religious belief, it's about breaking the law and child abuse. Calling child abuse a part of your religion does not give you immunity from following the same laws as everyone else.

Well said.
It's nice to find myself on the "agreeing" side with you!

[Details]

I don't think that children that are still nursing are a risk to be coached to lie.

I don't think that if a woman is willing to leave the compound, leave her husband and get a job just so she can remain with her children should be further punished by being taken from them.

As far as that last statement about 'hellfire' that is again a preconceived notion, I always thought people were innocent until proved guilty.You know what I mean about hellfire. Anyone - anyone at all, suspected of abuse, or even of turning a blind eye to abuse - is not allowed to be alone with the suspected victim so they cannot tamper with the investigation. I gave one example of such possible tampering. Of course they don't know if they will or will not - but it cannot be allowed.

If you are an eyewitness to a murder, you think the police would let the top suspect, or the top suspect's wife have a little private time with you, unobserved, before their investigation, and the lineup is complete? I sure hope not! They're innocent until proven guilty, but the potential for tampering, for threats, is too great to ignore.



First they have to finish the investigation, then they can look to returning the children. Right now, they don't even know what all the children will say. Should they return the child because the mother makes an offer to get a job, etc. (with the obvious risk that the FLDS will do what they were trying to do during the raid, and make the child vanish once they get ahold of it), only to find out that this child was going to tell them about how the mother beats him/her every day?

We protect children in our society. When there's reason to believe abuse, and there sure is here, the child is removed to a safe place. The parents are not allowed any unsupervised contact, so they cannot guilt or threaten the child into silence. An investigation happens, then, with the facts, a solution is found.


If the mothers and fathers then promise no more child labor, no more underage marriages, no more throwing underage boys out, and promise to give them the same quality of education as is required (a major problem for those kicked out of the cult - they are not educating these children beyond a bare minimum, far below what they should have on the most elemental subjects), and the child is not being abused - then give the child back. With monitoring to be sure the promises are being kept. Just like any other family with a problem. If there is abuse - prosecute like any other family.


Oh, and the nursing children - I think CPS is worried - and with good reason - that the mothers will cause those children to vanish, if allowed out, and then continue to groom them to be pedophile fodder.

[cogito]

The child is in the same room with the adult - the mothers needed no cell phone on the child to contact him or her. It was to prevent interaction between the men and the children via the women. Once the mothers were not with the children, they can have as many cell phones as they like.

Prayers in private can also be intimidation, instruction, guilt, in private. Suspected abusers are not ever supposed to be alone with the suspected victim. Let alone twice a day.

The buses - whatever - it was the ones they had access to, or whatever. This is not a large town, transporting 400 children is no simple task.


And if the differing religious belief didn't include wholesale child abuse, with underage sex, discarding children and child labor, they'd be left alone. This isn't about religious belief, it's about breaking the law and child abuse. Calling child abuse a part of your religion does not give you immunity from following the same laws as everyone else.


There are all types of abuse...like putting a child with a religion into a home with people of a different religion that openly preaches from the pulpit that their scriptures are evil and wrong.

If you're going to start trying to prevent abuse based on what 'might' happen. It would be a good idea to start there.

[Texas53]

No...what needs to happen is that CPS needs to request and grant court-ordered visits to the compound. Regular visits would allow CPS to view and see any abuses and act upon them individually.


They cannot do that until the investigation is completed.

So even if these girls are being sexually abused, you would want them sent back to the compound where it can continue and CPS go on visits? Do you really think this is going to be happening when CPS goes out?

Thats the very reason many kids are left with parents that kill them. CPS goes out and things look just fine. CPS leaves and then later police are finding abused and abandoned or dead kids and CPS and LE is blamed for doing nothing!

[Details]

FLDS members said Texas authorities rejected their offers of personal clothing for the women and children staying at the coliseum and nearby Wells Fargo Pavilion.

An FLDS man said he tried to deliver a U-Haul full of the personal items nearly two weeks ago. "They returned everything," he told the Deseret News

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272416,00.htmlIt's called a washing machine. Refusing clothes (which may not have been needed) doesn't mean they were in dirty clothes.

Every major disaster I'm familiar with has the same story of someone bringing up a bunch of charity, and having it turned down, since they already had all that was needed.

[awakening2lite]

There are all types of abuse...like putting a child with a religion into a home with people of a different religion that openly preaches from the pulpit that their scriptures are evil and wrong.

If you're going to start trying to prevent abuse based on what 'might' happen. It would be a good idea to start there.

Yeah, you're right, there are different types of abuse.

Like teaching children that the outside world is evil and are of the beast and then when the boys reach puberty, have no preparation, toss them out into the world with no hope of returning and no support.

[cogito]

They cannot do that until the investigation is completed.

So even if these girls are being sexually abused, you would want them sent back to the compound where it can continue and CPS go on visits? Do you really think this is going to be happening when CPS goes out?

Thats the very reason many kids are left with parents that kill them. CPS goes out and things look just fine. CPS leaves and then later police are finding abused and abandoned or dead kids and CPS and LE is blamed for doing nothing!


No....but by even the most outlandish reports...nursing babies are not subject to abuse, neither are the very small girls and boys.

I am not advocating lunacy, I'm advocating against it. Moderation. Common sense. Some indication that this is not based upon religious persecution like using school buses instead of buses from churches antagonistic to theirs....letting them have prayers with their children, letting them read scriptures, hear their sermons, stay with their nursing children.....

[cogito]

It's called a washing machine. Refusing clothes (which may not have been needed) doesn't mean they were in dirty clothes.

Every major disaster I'm familiar with has the same story of someone bringing up a bunch of charity, and having it turned down, since they already had all that was needed.

You have any links to show that they had washing machines available?

[Details]

According to the news reports, there are quite a few former alter boys that would disagree with you.Quite a few - but yet a very small percentage out of all altar boys. Now then - you ask all former FLDS members about abuse - and you get the same story from ALL of them. You might see at the highest, 1% of altar boys abused. Former FLDS - 100% of them describe abuse happening in the compound. 1% - not wholesale. 100% - wholesale.

[Texas53]

Back in 1962 thru 1965, I would have been thrilled if CPS and LE had pulled me out of my home due to suspicion. My schitzophrenic mother would beat me and put a loaded gun to me threatening to kill me. My relatives would not step in and help me. Neither would my dad. She would do this when he was gone to work. Finally when he died in 1965, the court awarded temporary custody of me a family.

After what I went through as a child, to hell with religious differences or any other excuse. If there is a complaint, pull the kids out, until there is proof otherwise that it is or isn't being done. I would rather be safe then sorry.

[awakening2lite]

<snipped>

As far as hearing the cases separately, according to one of the many articles I posted, that is not what the state is pushing for, and it seems that the judge will favor the state, though that according to the article will make this case ripe for appeal.

As far as that final part, we will have to wait and see.

EXCERPT

All the children are supposed to get individual hearings before June 5 to help determine whether their parents may be able to take steps to regain custody or they'll stay in state custody.

source: http://www.onenewsnow.com/Headlines/Default.aspx?id=77296

[Details]

No...what needs to happen is that CPS needs to request and grant court-ordered visits to the compound. Regular visits would allow CPS to view and see any abuses and act upon them individually.They visited, they saw abuses, and since they were systemic, it affected ALL of the children. When asked, they all says there is no age too young for a girl to be married. The records of the compound confirm this systemic problem.

Imagine this. There's a group of families that is insisting on living on top of a pretty predictable volcano. They and all of us know that it will erupt, and kill or maim them all, sometime between now, and 5 years from now - any time. But the parents have a religion that believes being consumed by a volcano is a divine experience. They teach their children to come running when the volcano rumbles. Teach them not to try to escape, not to resist.

Should we let them stay? After all, they're not dead yet. Or maybe we just let the women take the children.... still with their belief that it's a good and right thing to live on top of a volcano - they'll just keep teaching the kids to be perfect volcano fodder, find a new volcano to sit on.

They are treated as a whole because they are a whole. They all live in the compound ruled absolutely by someone who gives little girls to old men, ruled absolutely by someone who discards little boys when they get inconvenient, ruled absolutely by someone who tosses any dissenting father out of there, and reassigns his wives to a new man. The compound is the problem. Everyone in it is in the same situation.

[Details]

You have any links to show that they had washing machines available?You show me one link proving dirty clothes?

[cogito]

Yeah, you're right, there are different types of abuse.

Like teaching children that the outside world is evil and are of the beast and then when the boys reach puberty, have no preparation, toss them out into the world with no hope of returning and no support.

People are free to teach their children their religion. I've no doubt that many of the abuses you cite happen. I also have no doubt that their numbers are blown out of proportion. They always are in cases like this. Plus, being from the mainstream LDS church, I know myself of outlandish lies posted as fact by people who claim to be in the know. All it boils down to is thay were willing to find a few people with an ax to grind against my church. It's even quite possible that some of the things that they claim happened did happen. However, they always extrapolate those claims to be an indication that the church itself is evil and not merely a person in the church who took a instance and claimed it was secretly sanctioned and condoned by the church.

The FLDS marry young women....no doubt. However, the age of consent is 16 and girls that age can marry with parental consent. Perhaps a few were forced or coerced into marriage. But if the abuse was as rampant and widespread as news reports would have us believe....don't you think that they would have quite a few young women openly grateful to have been rescued?

I take all those reports with a grain of salt because I've been on the recieving end of the lies too many times.

[awakening2lite]

Back in 1962 thru 1965, I would have been thrilled if CPS and LE had pulled me out of my home due to suspicion. My schitzophrenic mother would beat me and put a loaded gun to me threatening to kill me. My relatives would not step in and help me. Neither would my dad. She would do this when he was gone to work. Finally when he died in 1965, the court awarded temporary custody of me a family.

After what I went through as a child, to hell with religious differences or any other excuse. If there is a complaint, pull the kids out, until there is proof otherwise that it is or isn't being done. I would rather be safe then sorry.

I'm sorry you had to go through that Texas. And I'm glad you have been able to overcome it and use it for the good of others.

[Texas53]

Cog, most of us know the difference between LDS and FLDS.

FLDS is Fake Latter Day Saints. As for whats going on out in San Angelo, I'm not thinking about religion. I am thinking of the kids. Any person that uses their religion as an excuse to have sex with a minor, should be castrated in my opinion.

BTW: I have run into several people in my lifetime that believed in plural marriages. but told me they were not FLDS or LDS. They did however, use religion as an excuse to have a plural marriage.

[Texas53]

I'm sorry you had to go through that Texas. And I'm glad you have been able to overcome it and use it for the good of others.


Thanks! I will fight to the death for a child that being abused in any way.

[cogito]

You show me one link proving dirty clothes?

Well, I've yet to see a civic center that has a laundry facility.

[awakening2lite]

People are free to teach their children their religion. I've no doubt that many of the abuses you cite happen. I also have no doubt that their numbers are blown out of proportion. They always are in cases like this. Plus, being from the mainstream LDS church, I know myself of outlandish lies posted as fact by people who claim to be in the know. All it boils down to is thay were willing to find a few people with an ax to grind against my church. It's even quite possible that some of the things that they claim happened did happen. However, they always extrapolate those claims to be an indication that the church itself is evil and not merely a person in the church who took a instance and claimed it was secretly sanctioned and condoned by the church.

The FLDS marry young women....no doubt. However, the age of consent is 16 and girls that age can marry with parental consent. Perhaps a few were forced or coerced into marriage. But if the abuse was as rampant and widespread as news reports would have us believe....don't you think that they would have quite a few young women openly grateful to have been rescued?

I take all those reports with a grain of salt because I've been on the recieving end of the lies too many times.

I have faith in the system sorting out truth from lie and giving the injured the opportunity to step up and talk about it. However, it is unlikely in this case, as it has been in others for children of abuse (and especially those who are adults now) to speak out about their abuse in the midst of chaos. It's a very difficult subject for the abused to admit to, even to themselves. If the entire environment is subject to the same abuse as a normal part of their lives, it becomes even less likely and if they are taught we are out to get them, it becomes more unlikely. For some of them, it may take many years and only if they are separated from the sect, for them to admit to themselves that all was not ok.

I'm sorry you have found yourself on the receiving end of lies about your beliefs, but this is a case about children having children and so many other abuses that could be connected.

I find myself hoping there is no evidence of abuse because I do not want there to be any. I'm going to hold that hope but still look at what is revealed and hope, if abuse is going on, that it will be discovered and ended.

[cogito]

I understand what you're saying but I've lived too long not to know that the one thing Law Enforcement is interested in more than justice, is protecting its own ass. I've said it once before on this forum and it bears repeating, "What evil good can be" People are never more in danger of abusing or taking away the rights of another than when they are absolutely 100% convinced that they're right.

[Details]

Well, I've yet to see a civic center that has a laundry facility.Not me. Every civic center I've ever seen has a nice supply of clean towels and other such items. Either from laundry onsite or off. Our local tiny Scottish Rite center has one (I go to Gem shows there - not a big place). There have been pictures of the kids leaving in the buses to the foster homes (laughing and waving by a description of someone who saw the video) - no dirty clothes there.


Outlandish lies - the same from all of the FLDS escapees. Sorry - I don't buy it. Sounds too much like the initial defenses of those who didn't want to believe the Catholic pedophile priest scandal - those victims too were called liars. Religious persecution was alleged there too.

[cogito]

Not me. Every civic center I've ever seen has a nice supply of clean towels and other such items. Either from laundry onsite or off. Our local tiny Scottish Rite center has one (I go to Gem shows there - not a big place). There have been pictures of the kids leaving in the buses to the foster homes (laughing and waving by a description of someone who saw the video) - no dirty clothes there.


Outlandish lies - the same from all of the FLDS escapees. Sorry - I don't buy it. Sounds too much like the initial defenses of those who didn't want to believe the Catholic pedophile priest scandal - those victims too were called liars. Religious persecution was alleged there too.

The last two I designed didn't have them.

[awakening2lite]

Thanks! I will fight to the death for a child that being abused in any way.

You're a good person, Texas!

[awakening2lite]

You show me one link proving dirty clothes?

I haven't seen one, and I don't believe cps keeps children in dirty clothes.

[Sumanadevii]

I am not torn on this issue in the least. I wish for every child to have the protection offered these children. Too many fall through the cracks of a system that is in place to help them. This has little to do with religion and everything to do with the sexual abuse of children. I salute the State of Texas for having the courage to take those steps.

[awakening2lite]

I understand what you're saying but I've lived too long not to know that the one thing Law Enforcement is interested in more than justice, is protecting its own ass. I've said it once before on this forum and it bears repeating, "What evil good can be" People are never more in danger of abusing or taking away the rights of another than when they are absolutely 100% convinced that they're right.

Another reason for open courtrooms. Thank goodness for public hearings and trials.

[StoneFox]

It's called a washing machine. Refusing clothes (which may not have been needed) doesn't mean they were in dirty clothes.

Every major disaster I'm familiar with has the same story of someone bringing up a bunch of charity, and having it turned down, since they already had all that was needed.

How do we know we can believe these people anyway? They 'lie for the lord' on a regular basis to manipulate the system and get what they want.

I am sure if dirty clothes and such were an issue, the attorneys for these kids would have their faces all over the media complaining about it. Attorneys were at the facility every day, along with the Red Cross and janitorial personnel.

[StoneFox]

I understand what you're saying but I've lived too long not to know that the one thing Law Enforcement is interested in more than justice, is protecting its own ass. I've said it once before on this forum and it bears repeating, "What evil good can be" People are never more in danger of abusing or taking away the rights of another than when they are absolutely 100% convinced that they're right.

Are you speaking of the FLDS with that last sentence? It sure made me think of them before I thought of LE.

[cogito]

Are you speaking of the FLDS with that last sentence? It sure made me think of them before I thought of LE.

I was speaking of anyone who exhibits those traits....ANYone

[cogito]

How do we know we can believe these people anyway? They 'lie for the lord' on a regular basis to manipulate the system and get what they want.

I am sure if dirty clothes and such were an issue, the attorneys for these kids would have their faces all over the media complaining about it. Attorneys were at the facility every day, along with the Red Cross and janitorial personnel.

Unbelievable!...it was a LIE that brought LE to the compound in the first place! So...it's okay for LE to lie when they're convinced they're right or to try and build acase based on a lie...but not others?

[LiveLaughLuv]

Unbelievable!...it was a LIE that brought LE to the compound in the first place! So...it's okay for LE to lie when they're convinced they're right or to try and build acase based on a lie...but not others?


It wasn't LE who lied, whoever made that phone call (which I posted earlier in this thread) pulled a prank or knew what was going on and brought attention to the situation.

Since their initial investigation, they took those children/mothers away for good reason. The judge ruled they had enough evidence to remove the children. Even if this was originally based on a lie, there is good reason to remove and close down that compound and others like it, if they are abusing woman/children.

If one is in a polygamous relationship, being over the age of consent, then do what you want. To me this "cult" is about control, nothing to do with love!

[StoneFox]

Unbelievable!...it was a LIE that brought LE to the compound in the first place! So...it's okay for LE to lie when they're convinced they're right or to try and build acase based on a lie...but not others?

LE didn't lie to enter the compound, they acted on a call for help from a person saying she was a minor, living on the compound, married to an older man who was abusing her. LE and the family crisis center that called LE believed the call was genuine. It's called probable cause.

LE went to the compound based on probable cause to help the person that made the call. When they were on the compound, they observed other minor girls pregnant. THAT is when they got the second warrant. The decision was held up by the Supreme Court a couple of days ago. LE can take action based on probable cause.

The case LE is building is not based on the possible fake call to the crisis center, but on their observations once they entered the compound, which produced the second search warrant.

The only lie that exists here did not come from LE, but from a mentally disturbed person in Colorado.

So far, all the actions taken by LE in this case have been validated by county, state and federal law.

:INhouseReading04:

[cogito]

The inconsistencies here are staggering. They wouldn't think of taking away Catholic children even though there's ample evidence to suggest a web of deciet and lies, rampant abuse and coverups. Nope...the Catholics are too powerful so we'll just take those cases as they arise. (the way it should be done BTW)

Neither would they go into the inner cities and see underage moms who are having THIER third or fourth child and take them away even though it's better than even money that a good percentage of the fathers are adults...

The only reason they even THINK about doing this to the FLDS is because they aren't powerful enough to cause problems for them.

[LiveLaughLuv]

The inconsistencies here are staggering. They wouldn't think of taking away Catholic children even though there's ample evidence to suggest a web of deciet and lies, rampant abuse and coverups. Nope...the Catholics are too powerful so we'll just take those cases as they arise. (the way it should be done BTW)

Neither would they go into the inner cities and see underage moms who are having THIER third or fourth child and take them away even though it's better than even money that a good percentage of the fathers are adults...

The only reason they even THINK about doing this to the FLDS is because they aren't powerful enough to cause problems for them.


Any religious organization who abuses children/woman should stand the same risk. It just so happened to be members of the FLDS "cult", with ample evidence to remove the children.

Yes, there are underage children who have children themselves, if they too are deemed abusive, then they too risk the same. The most imporantant aspect of this is to protect the children/woman/boys. These men in power are also teaching the boys to become predators, not respecting woman one iota. I think it was a bold move but necessary just the same. Someone has to stand up and set standards even when they oust what the rest of the world does and set their own set of rules/standards as a way of overthrowing the govt and what it stands for. Their other purpose in life.

I'm sorry this has religious ties to it they too are human and should not be abusing woman and children in any way, shape or form. They have chose to hid behind their religion in the name of pedophilia, spousal abuse and child abuse thinking no one can touch us.

[cogito]

Any religious organization who abuses children/woman should stand the same risk. It just so happened to be members of the FLDS "cult", with ample evidence to remove the children.

Yes, there are underage children who have children themselves, if they too are deemed abusive, then they too risk the same. The most imporantant aspect of this is to protect the children/woman/boys. These men in power are also teaching the boys to become predators, not respecting woman one iota. I think it was a bold move but necessary just the same. Someone has to stand up and set standards even when they oust what the rest of the world does and set their own set of rules/standards as a way of overthrowing the govt and what it stands for. Their other purpose in life.

I'm sorry this has religious ties to it they too are human and should not be abusing woman and children in any way, shape or form. They have chose to hid behind their religion in the name of pedophilia, spousal abuse and child abuse thinking no one can touch us.


So then....you're in favor of taking away inner city kids because the men in power there are gangsters and criminals and teaching the young boys to look up to them ? To treat women like sex objects and use drugs...to use violence as a means of getting your way?

I agree that the FLDS are doing something wrong. What I don't agree with is the selective outrage of the public.