Has Texas lost two of the FLDS children?

[cogito]

SAN ANGELO, Texas — As children from the Fundamentalist LDS Church settled into new foster homes this weekend, the whereabouts of two young boys remains uncertain.
Child welfare workers in Texas say they're not worried. But the mother of the boys and attorneys representing the mothers are not sure whether they should be or not.

"We just don't know where they are," Cynthia Martinez told the Deseret News Saturday



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html

Oh goodie...as long as they're not worried :rolleye0001:

[Roamer]

Why the heck aren't they worried? Do they think they ran back to the men or the men took them? That's still a big cause for worry!

[Tracian]

SAN ANGELO, Texas — As children from the Fundamentalist LDS Church settled into new foster homes this weekend, the whereabouts of two young boys remains uncertain.
Child welfare workers in Texas say they're not worried. But the mother of the boys and attorneys representing the mothers are not sure whether they should be or not.

"We just don't know where they are," Cynthia Martinez told the Deseret News Saturday



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html

Oh goodie...as long as they're not worried :rolleye0001:


This just keeps getting better and better....sheesh.

[Tracian]

Have you read some of the comments?

http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/1,5150,695274226,00.html

All I can say is WOW

[Tracian]

Why the heck aren't they worried? Do they think they ran back to the men or the men took them? That's still a big cause for worry!


IMO, it was never really about protecting children. Read some of the comments, I posted the link, some actually have said that 'loosing two is acceptable'

[cogito]

I am sick that people cannot see the forrest for the trees on this issue. I am beginning to see some Texans being very upset with the heavy-handed jack-booted way in which this was handled.

[Tracian]

A comment made mention on the way the government removed Native American children from reservations because it was 'for their own good'

I am going to do some research on that, for my blog.

[Roamer]

Not to go off topic, Tracian, but regarding your posts, I've read a lot about the Native American children being removed, punished for speaking their own languange, wearing their own clothes, not cutting their hair, and some never seeing their parents again. It was horrendous. :1187603408.CR.Mothe

And whatever's going on with these children in Texas, it is not acceptable to lose one child, let alone two. :mad:

[spike404]

I am sick that people cannot see the forrest for the trees on this issue. I am beginning to see some Texans being very upset with the heavy-handed jack-booted way in which this was handled.

I am not upset in the way it has been handled. If the Texas law enforcement were jack-booted, then the law in Utah, and the neighboring states, were wearing ballet slippers when dealing with these folks.

[Tracian]

Not to go off topic, Tracian, but regarding your posts, I've read a lot about the Native American children being removed, punished for speaking their own languange, wearing their own clothes, not cutting their hair, and some never seeing their parents again. It was horrendous. :1187603408.CR.Mothe

And whatever's going on with these children in Texas, it is not acceptable to lose one child, let alone two. :mad:


Thanks Roamer, I didn't mean to take this off topic, but the mention was made in the comments section from the article.

It seems that, some of the comments regarding the possible loss of children was what Cogito and I have been debating, the public's general perception that the 'end justifies the means'.

[Tracian]

I am not upset in the way it has been handled. If the Texas law enforcement were jack-booted, then the law in Utah, and the neighboring states, were wearing ballet slippers when dealing with these folks.


I am not happy at all the way this is unfolding; for many reasons, now with the lack of concern about two children possibly missing, and the :0009: from CPS and some that commented on that possibility, I am even more concerned about the way this is being handled.

[SaberGal]

Oh goodie...as long as they're not worried :rolleye0001:

Yeah, we wouldn't want the child welfare officials to lose any sleep over this....This entire situation is scary....especially for anyone who has children.

[Tracian]

Yeah, we wouldn't want the child welfare officials to lose any sleep over this....This entire situation is scary....especially for anyone who has children.


I agree, even if these children were 'taken' by the FLDS, this is a very scary thing, if the 'evil' FLDS can walk in and take children, who else can in this chaos?...and of course they are not concerned that they cannot confirm where they are.

[Details]

They aren't concerned because they say they have not lost any children. Given the record - I'll believe them over FLDS members. Sounds to me like a mother asking where her child is, and with all the lies and different names given, they can't sort out which ones they are yet.

[Texas53]

I don't think the kids are missing. They all have similar names and its interesting to keep up with to say the least. Its like who is who? Here in San Antonio, there are armed Police and Sheriff Deputies on guard at all times at the shelters. I am guessing its the same everywhere else because Texas doesn't want anymore problems then what they have encountered with this mess.

Because of the publicity, believe me, CPS and Texas are working dang hard to be sure those kids are not really missing.

[Roamer]

I haven't looked for a link, but I'm sure there are several.

I heard on the news this morning that about half the girls in custody 14-17 either have children already or are pregnant. That's a very strong case against FLDS once they get the DNA results back.

[Texas53]

I heard that there were 2 kids in question. I also heard on the local news last night that some of the FLDS Men had left Texas. That really makes them look innocent!

[cogito]

I heard that there were 2 kids in question. I also heard on the local news last night that some of the FLDS Men had left Texas. That really makes them look innocent!

You really think that, in light of how all this went down, they think they'd get a fair trial?

[Texas53]

You really think that, in light of how all this went down, they think they'd get a fair trial?

Its possible. I have seen people tried for murder who got fair trials. When it came to sentencing, one woman on the jury wanted the guy to get probation! For murder!

I've sat in on trials and seen murderers cut loose on probation, drunks who killed people with cars get light to no sentences, etc. It depends where the case is tried.

You would be surprised at the people who do not even listen to the news let alone knows whats going on around them in their own neighborhood. Yes, its true. I have been shocked by this fact many times.

[spike404]

I haven't looked for a link, but I'm sure there are several.

I heard on the news this morning that about half the girls in custody 14-17 either have children already or are pregnant. That's a very strong case against FLDS once they get the DNA results back.

AP story this AM. 31 girls either are mothers, or pregnant.

This is telling:
"...Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split — 197 girls and 196 boys — but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range...."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5738392.html

[KittyMom]

"We don't have any unaccounted-for kids. All of them are in foster care now," said Van Deusen.

I see this as grandstanding by the lawyers for these cult members. Anything to make headlines. DCF spokesman said they have no unaccted for kids. I choose to believe DCF and not a group of secretive, law breaking individuals with no respect for the laws of our country. Sounds to me like this "mother" wants a physical addy for her kids. That won't and shouldn't happen.

I've had a question on my mind for some time now...just how did these pedos know when these young girls were "ready" for spiritual marriage? Either their mothers told that they were having cycles or these old guys were checking themselves. Either way, these caring mothers knew it was happening.

[Texas53]

I see this as grandstanding by the lawyers for these cult members. Anything to make headlines. DCF spokesman said they have no unaccted for kids. I choose to believe DCF and not a group of secretive, law breaking individuals with no respect for the laws of our country. Sounds to me like this "mother" wants a physical addy for her kids. That won't and shouldn't happen.

I've had a question on my mind for some time now...just how did these pedos know when these young girls were "ready" for spiritual marriage? Either their mothers told that they were having cycles or these old guys were checking themselves. Either way, these caring mothers knew it was happening.


By the time the young girls had their first periods, these slimy excuses for men probably new. At that point, it was definitely possible for them to have babies. JMHO

[maryhaze]

You really think that, in light of how all this went down, they think they'd get a fair trial?

so because they think they won't get a fair trial, the answer is to run off??? i don't think the trial is what they are worried about as much as the DNA results. because if it turn out that uncle josiah got his 13 year old niece preggers, the crap is gonna hit the fan in a big way, as well it should.

[Details]

And - as I'd thought - it was just all about names (and getting a good headline in the more FLDS friendly papers - national media never picked this story up, probably because they could tell it was nothing). They know which 11 year old boy it is, and there are 3 candidates for the younger boy. It's a problem with giving different answers for names, parents, ages, all the time - when you want to find someone, it's difficult to figure out which name they listed under.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274752,00.html

[SaberGal]

So...out of the 463 children that have been removed from parental custody, only 31 are believed to have children or be pregnant? I don't agree with the FDLS lifestyle at all but it's going to take more than some pregnant teenagers and some sensational stories in the press for me to believe that all those kids were being abused.

I consider child abusers to be just about the worst mankind has to offer but I also know that much of what is initially reported by the press is inaccurate or false. The only thing that seems factual is that this group of people has some pregnant teenagers...in that respect, it makes them very similar to communities all over the US. I realize this POV will not be popular - but that's OK. It needs to be said. Anyone remember the Bakersfield, CA "witch hunt?" I hope so...because this sounds eerily similar.

JMHO

[Tracian]

I think that CPS is trying this case media. The first reports were girls as young as 13, now they are upping the age to as young as 14.

Further, they don't even know if another minor got some of these girls pregnant yet, I think that maybe CPS should stop leaking bits and pieces.

Saber Gal:

I have a thread I started on the Religion board dealing with the satanic witch hunts of the 80's....scary stuff.

[SaberGal]

I think that CPS is trying this case media. The first reports were girls as young as 13, now they are upping the age to as young as 14.

Further, they don't even know if another minor got some of these girls pregnant yet, I think that maybe CPS should stop leaking bits and pieces.

Saber Gal:

I have a thread I started on the Religion board dealing with the satanic witch hunts of the 80's....scary stuff.

ITA - they are definitely trying this case in the press. They do this with so many cases and it does nothing but taint potential jurors, IMO - and Cogito is right - it will be next to impossible for any potential FDLS defendant to get a fair trial if it comes to that.

I will check out the thread for sure. I mentioned the Bakersfield case specifically because it involved child abuse that never happened. The lives it ruined is very sad and I would hate to see it repeated in Texas.

As always, JMHO.

[Roamer]

So...out of the 463 children that have been removed from parental custody, only 31 are believed to have children or be pregnant? I don't agree with the FDLS lifestyle at all but it's going to take more than some pregnant teenagers and some sensational stories in the press for me to believe that all those kids were being abused.

JMHO


No, SG, I think they said out of the 53 young girls believed to be 14-17 years old, 31 are either pregnant or already had children.

[Tracian]

No, SG, I think they said out of the 53 young girls believed to be 14-17 years old, 31 are either pregnant or already had children.



Yes, believed, just like last week it was believed these girls were as young as 13....

Until they know, they should not put out possibilities, as I before stated, they don't even who are the fathers in all cases of the possible under aged girls, they don't know their ages for sure; all this piece meal information is doing in inciting the public against them before the evidence is clear.

[SaberGal]

Yes, believed, just like last week it was believed these girls were as young as 13....

Until they know, they should not put out possibilities, as I before stated, they don't even who are the fathers in all cases of the possible under aged girls, they don't know their ages for sure; all this piece meal information is doing in inciting the public against them before the evidence is clear.

Exactly right!

[cogito]

Exactly right!


I also remember when it was stated that they found beds in the temple for consummating marriages...turns out that it was because temple worship lasted as long as 18 hours and it provided a place for people to lie down if need be.

That's what I'm talking about. The press and the public assume the sleaziest most sinister thing and run with it as if its fact.

[Tracian]

I also remember when it was stated that they found beds in the temple for consummating marriages...turns out that it was because temple worship lasted as long as 18 hours and it provided a place for people to lie down if need be.

That's what I'm talking about. The press and the public assume the sleaziest most sinister thing and run with it as if its fact.


That is what makes ratings and sells papers. I have been watching this on NG and I have to say, very disapointed by the way the this story is being presented, and that no one in the media is catching or addressing the errors in the earlier reports.

[SaberGal]

I also remember when it was stated that they found beds in the temple for consummating marriages...turns out that it was because temple worship lasted as long as 18 hours and it provided a place for people to lie down if need be.

That's what I'm talking about. The press and the public assume the sleaziest most sinister thing and run with it as if its fact.

I had heard the rumor about the bed in the temple but never heard what it was actually used for - thanks.

Yes, the press often reports rumor as fact - many times with a wink and a nod from law enforcement, IMO.

[TigressPen]

I had heard the rumor about the bed in the temple but never heard what it was actually used for - thanks.

Yes, the press often reports rumor as fact - many times with a wink and a nod from law enforcement, IMO.



Didn't we read that LE took the bedding from the temple bed and DNA was on it? If it's semen then the bed is indeed used for other than resting ...

[TigressPen]

Not to go off topic, Tracian, but regarding your posts, I've read a lot about the Native American children being removed, punished for speaking their own languange, wearing their own clothes, not cutting their hair, and some never seeing their parents again. It was horrendous. :1187603408.CR.Mothe

And whatever's going on with these children in Texas, it is not acceptable to lose one child, let alone two. :mad:



I agree that it isn't acceptable to lose any child! However, I read an article that said the social services had problems with the mothers telling them the children's names and their own, and the braclets that was used was taken off the children or the writing rubbed off. So, I am not surprised that a couple are 'lost' in the shuffle from one place to another.

( I didn't save a link to that article or I'd include it here - if I see it again, I will come in and add it to this thread)

[SaberGal]

Didn't we read that LE took the bedding from the temple bed and DNA was on it? If it's semen then the bed is indeed used for other than resting ...

It doesn't surprise me that DNA would have been found on bedding. Respectfully, the speculation that it was semen is just that....speculation. I don't even believe 1/2 of what is reported in the press. Often, once the dust settles, the facts are vastly different from what is originally reported in these sensational stories.

JMHO.

[Queen Bee]

I agree that it isn't acceptable to lose any child! However, I read an article that said the social services had problems with the mothers telling them the children's names and their own, and the braclets that was used was taken off the children or the writing rubbed off. So, I am not surprised that a couple are 'lost' in the shuffle from one place to another.

( I didn't save a link to that article or I'd include it here - if I see it again, I will come in and add it to this thread)

Hi Tigress Pen:happy0207: Longtime lurker and new poster, I'm a CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate) that represents children in court as a Guardian Ad Litem. We interview EVERYONE involved and make unbiased recommendations to the judge on placement, services needed, etc. We also stay with the case thru completion so that we're a constant for the child, unlike CPS due to turnover. We're trained volunteers. I went to our state conference last weekend and our National Dir. from DC spoke about this situation.

He said that three counties of CASA's were court assigned to these children, the mothers refused to let any of the children talk to CPS. They finally gave all CASA's the exact same pin to wear so that everyone would know they were CASAs and the moms finally agreed to let the children only talk to the "pin ladies". What a mess!!

Hoping for justice for these children, whatever that may end of beng:1222423:

[Tracian]

On Nancy Grace the other night, one of the attorneys for the children was getting bend about the 'leaks' to the media, especially since the attorneys that are repersenting these kids were not given much of the information in relation to their clients as the media was getting.

She said, "When these leaks come out, we are hearing them for the first time on the news, and then are frantically emailing and calling each other to find out which child(ren) are being referenced.

[Queen Bee]

On Nancy Grace the other night, one of the attorneys for the children was getting bend about the 'leaks' to the media, especially since the attorneys that are repersenting these kids were not given much of the information in relation to their clients as the media was getting.

She said, "When these leaks come out, we are hearing them for the first time on the news, and then are frantically emailing and calling each other to find out which child(ren) are being referenced.


I can understand their frustration, as CASAs and GALs, we are sworn to the upmost confidentiality and I have been worried about this as well. As a matter of fact, our national director even voiced his concerns, although he did say that at the hearing (two GIGANTIC courtrooms connected by video) the media was EVERYWHERE.

As a matter of fact, the judge cleared them all to the backs of the courtrooms as attorneys and CASAs couldn't even get in. He also said that while going to the compound, shelters, and foster homes, the media were relentless and even dangerous at some points.

I have read interviews with some of the GALs and they are in an awkward position in that they have to do what the children request. CASAs have a much easier job, imo in that we interview everyone involved (police, DA, parents, therapists, children, etc.) and then recommend what's best. The GALs I work with are sometimes frustrated that they have to follow the direction of their client. But definitely GALs are necessary, they protect all the legal aspects of the child's rights.

[SaberGal]

On Nancy Grace the other night, one of the attorneys for the children was getting bend about the 'leaks' to the media, especially since the attorneys that are repersenting these kids were not given much of the information in relation to their clients as the media was getting.

She said, "When these leaks come out, we are hearing them for the first time on the news, and then are frantically emailing and calling each other to find out which child(ren) are being referenced.

I think the leaks are very carefully orchestrated to sway public opinion based on emotional responses rather than the facts of the case. To taint the jury pool, so to speak. JMHO.

[texanne]

We have 35 of the kids here in my area. Thirty are very young...6 mo. to 5 years. The other 5 are young mothers....so young that they qualify to be at the children's shelter. At least one of them is said to be the mother of some of the smaller children. They have begun to loosen up, smile, even asking for a sewing machine. Truck loads of donated goods are being stored near the shelter till they need them. Someone donated a sewing machine, many yards of material, and everything they will need to sew. Someone else donated a piano, something else they enjoy. The home is bending over backwards to protect them. I consider them MUCH better off here than being where they were.....used as child brood mares for a bunch of disgusting pedophiles. But, then that is just me. I hope the two missing kids is just a paperwork mistake. Whatever it is, it is not a good thing. But to comdemn Texas for doing what the other states sat on their hands and refused to do is wrong. Little girls should grow up to be strong, independent women capable of deciding for themselves what they want to do with their life. They should never be kept in a compound while some old man scopes her out as his next bride. GAG!