Age of the girls

[awakening2lite]

Texas checking how many sect 'girls' are women

1 hour, 16 minutes ago

SAN ANTONIO - When Texas child welfare authorities released statistics showing nearly 60 percent of the teen girls taken from a polygamist sect's ranch were pregnant or had children, they seemed to prove what was alleged all along: The sect commonly pushed girls into marriage and sex.

But in the past week, the state has twice been forced to admit "girls" who gave birth while in state custody are actually adults. One was 22 and claims she showed state officials a Utah birth certificate shortly after she and more than 400 minors were seized from the west Texas ranch in an April raid.

The state has in custody two dozen other young mothers and others whose ages are in dispute. If most of them also turn out to be adults, it would be a severe blow to the state's claim of widespread sexual abuse.

If it turns out the other 24 disputed minors are adults, the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six. That would amount to about one-fifth of the girls that age found at the ranch — substantially higher than the average rate of teen pregnancies in Texas but a far cry from 60 percent.

"It's not widespread, and you've got to look at every family individually to determine whether there's a problem in a family," said Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the renegade Mormon sect that runs the ranch.

"There's no reluctance on our part to go ahead and take appropriate action if and when we can determine these are adults," said Patrick Crimmins, a spokesman for Child Protective Services. "We are working as quickly as possible to sort this out and realize the urgency."

All 463 of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day children removed from the Yearning For Zion Ranch have been in state custody for six weeks and are scattered in foster care facilities around the state.

Crimmins said he's not sure how long it will take to resolve the disputed-minor cases. CPS has complained that sect members refused to cooperate with their investigation, constantly changing answers or refusing answers to questions about age and parentage.

Parker claims the state ignored evidence the young mothers presented, including birth certificates and Social Security cards. He said that with their long braided hair, makeup-free faces and pioneer dresses, the women look very young.

"They're deliberately ignoring official records that show these mothers are not minors," he said, citing the Utah birth certificate showing Louisa Bradshaw Jessop was born in 1986.

Patricia Matassarin, Jessop's attorney, questioned how a person proves her age if officials won't believe a birth certificate or driver's license, which Jessop also gave the state.

"The issue is how does anyone prove the date of their birth? We don't get a date stamp when we're born," Matassarin said.

A birth certificate combined with testimony from Jessop's mother were presented, and state officials conceded in Austin on Thursday that Jessop is an adult.

Crimmins said many of the sect members whose ages are in dispute don't have documents typically used to establish age, like birth certificates, driver's licenses or public school records. FLDS children were home-schooled.

"We've been trying, sometimes with very little success, to get as much information as possible on the children," he said. "What we've said is consistent. We think there was some abuse — some physical abuse and some sexual abuse — at the ranch. This ranch was considered as a very large household."

The children are being treated the same as siblings of abused children in smaller households, where removal is common, Crimmins said.

The FLDS case is one of the most complicated custody cases in U.S. history, but all the children from the ranch were sent to foster care after state District Judge Barbara Walther found they were being abused or were at risk for abuse because adults were pushing underage girls into sex and marriage with older men.

In Texas, girls who are younger than 17 generally cannot consent to sex with adult men.

No one has been arrested or charged in the case.

All the children are scheduled to have hearings in the next three weeks to determine what steps their parents will need to take to regain custody.

The FLDS, which teaches polygamy brings glorification in heaven, broke away from the mainline Mormon church, which disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.

Sect leader Warren Jeffs, who is revered as a prophet, has been sentenced to prison in Utah for being an accomplice to rape in arranging a marriage of a 14-year-old follower to her 19-year-old cousin. He is awaiting trial in Arizona, where he is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct.

Jeffs' lawyers want the incest counts dropped, arguing that prosecutors in Mohave County cannot pursue those charges along with the sexual conduct counts. A judge is considering the request.

source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080516/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

[Tracian]

This is exactly the problem I have had with this case since the start, the leaking of information before they could be supported by facts.

[lyndawitha"y]

This is exactly the problem I have had with this case since the start, the leaking of information before they could be supported by facts.

But I still Say that if there is only one case ( know there's more0 then that indicates the ritual is accepted, adopted and does happen in this group of people..Due to their deceitful, denials and lack of proof of who/where the parents are..and proo of age and so on and so on...The legal system does not have to have a log fall on thier heads to realize just what is going on there!..Deny..Deny..with living humane witenesses to refute their denials should be enough!..I have seen many a criminal convicted in a court of law on less!

Religious beliefs are not a wholesale right to commit felonies..just wondering how much money is spent of legal advice by this group!..I say follow the money..something will show just what the rulers are up to!

:lex_10::zm1::groan:

[Tracian]

But I still Say that if there is only one case ( know there's more0 then that indicates the ritual is accepted, adopted and does happen in this group of people..Due to their deceitful, denials and lack of proof of who/where the parents are..and proo of age and so on and so on...The legal system does not have to have a log fall on thier heads to realize just what is going on there!..Deny..Deny..with living humane witenesses to refute their denials should be enough!..I have seen many a criminal convicted in a court of law on less!

Religious beliefs are not a wholesale right to commit felonies..just wondering how much money is spent of legal advice by this group!..I say follow the money..something will show just what the rulers are up to!

:lex_10::zm1::groan:


There is no reason to leak information to the media, none. This should be tried in a courtroom, not the court of public opinion, actions like this hurt the credibilty of the case, as well as CPS.

Whatever we like or dislike, everyone has a right to a fair trial, one court already ruled that CPS acted in haste, so what if the higher court concurs, and these children that everyone is concerned about are released back to their parents, and then taken to places out side the reach of the law?

This was an over zealous action, that as the new information is coming out, was handled like a media event, rather than a legal one, and that alone could cause much more harm, than good.

[lyndawitha"y]

There is no reason to leak information to the media, none. This should be tried in a courtroom, not the court of public opinion, actions like this hurt the credibilty of the case, as well as CPS.

Whatever we like or dislike, everyone has a right to a fair trial, one court already ruled that CPS acted in haste, so what if the higher court concurs, and these children that everyone is concerned about are released back to their parents, and then taken to places out side the reach of the law?

This was an over zealous action, that as the new information is coming out, was handled like a media event, rather than a legal one, and that alone could cause much more harm, than good.

Tracian..I certainly don't wish to get into a legal debate here..I do appreciate and respect where you are coming from...but in the past..if it wasn't for media attention (whether missing child, missing young person or older person for that matter)..sometimes there just needs to ne a "spotlight" on an issue to bring it foreward to be addressed!

As for this case...the legal system and media have not focused on THIS issue to this extent ever!.

Peace..and do appreciate your calm, reflection on facts...not emotion of the issue. which I am feeling..:0doh:

[GollyGeeWhiz]

I don't see a connection between alleged leaks to the media and whether or not the state of Texas ends up with a case they can try.

And I certainly don't understand how media leaks impact whether or not CPS acted in haste in removing the children.

If the allegation is that CPS called in the media in order to inflame the public against the FLDS, I haven't seen proof of that. The information the media does have specific to Eldorado - which is minimal IMO - could've come to them from sources other than CPS, I would think. The fact that in particular the Salt Lake Tribune, among other media outlets, and countless bloggers, have grabbed onto this and are focusing attention on it is not the fault of CPS. Texas CPS isn't the first group of individuals to take a sideways look at what's going on inside the FLDS.

I honestly don't know how, in a place the size of Eldorado, where the local newspaper has been aware and monitoring the activities of the YFZ ranch from about day 1 of construction, 460+ children could have been removed from behind those compound walls unnoticed.

I also don't think we have confirmation that this was an over zealous act on the part of CPS, since they are challenging the ruling by the appeals court. Until the dust settles, I think it's just as likely the appeals court acted hastily and over zealously in coming after CPS and the trial judges.

My 2 cents.

[lyndawitha"y]

I don't see a connection between alleged leaks to the media and whether or not the state of Texas ends up with a case they can try.

And I certainly don't understand how media leaks impact whether or not CPS acted in haste in removing the children.

If the allegation is that CPS called in the media in order to inflame the public against the FLDS, I haven't seen proof of that. The information the media does have specific to Eldorado - which is minimal IMO - could've come to them from sources other than CPS, I would think. The fact that in particular the Salt Lake Tribune, among other media outlets, and countless bloggers, have grabbed onto this and are focusing attention on it is not the fault of CPS. Texas CPS isn't the first group of individuals to take a sideways look at what's going on inside the FLDS.

I honestly don't know how, in a place the size of Eldorado, where the local newspaper has been aware and monitoring the activities of the YFZ ranch from about day 1 of construction, 460+ children could have been removed from behind those compound walls unnoticed.

I also don't think we have confirmation that this was an over zealous act on the part of CPS, since they are challenging the ruling by the appeals court. Until the dust settles, I think it's just as likely the appeals court acted hastily and over zealously in coming after CPS and the trial judges.

My 2 cents.

:love0081:

[Tracian]

Tracian..I certainly don't wish to get into a legal debate here..I do appreciate and respect where you are coming from...but in the past..if it wasn't for media attention (whether missing child, missing young person or older person for that matter)..sometimes there just needs to ne a "spotlight" on an issue to bring it foreward to be addressed!

As for this case...the legal system and media have not focused on THIS issue to this extent ever!.

Peace..and do appreciate your calm, reflection on facts...not emotion of the issue. which I am feeling..:0doh:


Missing persons, etc, media is instrumental in finding those people, so of course I support that completely.

There are many reasons this case concerns me, one of which is that the main concern seems to be the ick factor regarding their religion, and that was trumpeted as justification.

The reality is that, IMO, the media is hurting this case, they keep giving half truths and or misinformation to the public, then when CPS is expected to support those reports they fall short, and when all the smoke clears, the only ones that will suffer are those children if abuse is occurring.

I have researched a lot about child abuse hidden in religious practice, and believe me when I tell you what is alleged here is not as bad as other well known 'secret societies', that are ignored because they are 'quaint' or because they don't have the sensationalism factor, like polygamy, or the 'weird' factor like the way they dress.

And I will even go a step further, because of my spiritual belief, that has been twisted in the media, and because parents that have never done anything wrong, but have dared to be Wiccan or Pagan, have had their children taken away, with nothing more than speculation and preconceived notions, even going as far as 'interviews' with adult children that 'escaped' the evil 'occult' of Wicca, (which they like to lump in with Satanism, which is completely incorrect)

The law has to apply equally to everyone, because the minute we excuse the end to justify the means, the next time it could be anyone of us that get lost in the media circus; just ask those that suffered in the 80's the last time such sensationalism was used under the guise of protecting children.

There was a raid in Texas, a sect far darker than FLDS, where a child actually died, and it has not received 1/10 of the coverage as this has, why is that?
Is it because it is not as titillating to public consumption?

(I posted that story on breaking news)

I am emotional, I do care a great deal about children being victimized, but when CPS and other agencies preform in such a way, then IMO, they are victimized over and over.

[StoneFox]

If these kids get given back to the parent(s), then I say keep the pressure on even more. I just read about a book written by a Canadian journalist. The Texas case is causing outrage in Canada too over the FLDS practices. If there is a domino effect for the good of these kids, then I say let it happen. Every country will get enough of it eventually.

We can't drop the ball on these kids. Sure, it's a fiery topic right now, but I hope people keep the fire in their bellies about these crimes done in the name of religion long after whatever happens in Texas is history.

There are organizations out there fighting this cult on a daily basis. They need our support and our voices. The more outrage, the more the governments and LE will take a proactive stance.

Claiming a practice in the name of religious freedom does not give people the freedom to break the law.

Will we do the same when the next cult decides they want to offer up virgin women as sacrifice so the men can enter heaven? God I hope not. When do we say as a society enough is enough?

:45024: "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"

From the Movie Network; Beale's impassioned plea to fellow Americans.

[grammybears]

I think that the more the public knows about these kinds of groups the more hopefully people will want something done to protect these children that are born to these so called religious groups.
I do not know where the call came from to CPS but they had to act on it. The call could have even come from someone connected to the compound. This could have been done to garner more sympathy for the cause of the FLDS. I do think anything is possible. But the reaction of Willie Jessop tells me there is more going on. The direct questions are not being answered and the FLDS are side stepping every issue that they do not want known.

jmoo

[lyndawitha"y]

If these kids get given back to the parent(s), then I say keep the pressure on even more. I just read about a book written by a Canadian journalist. The Texas case is causing outrage in Canada too over the FLDS practices. If there is a domino effect for the good of these kids, then I say let it happen. Every country will get enough of it eventually.

We can't drop the ball on these kids. Sure, it's a fiery topic right now, but I hope people keep the fire in their bellies about these crimes done in the name of religion long after whatever happens in Texas is history.

There are organizations out there fighting this cult on a daily basis. They need our support and our voices. The more outrage, the more the governments and LE will take a proactive stance.

Claiming a practice in the name of religious freedom does not give people the freedom to break the law.

Will we do the same when the next cult decides they want to offer up virgin women as sacrifice so the men can enter heaven? God I hope not. When do we say as a society enough is enough?

:45024: "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"

From the Movie Network; Beale's impassioned plea to fellow Americans.


As a Canadian..I am so relieved that the authorities are watching..and hoefully holding these people to the law!..As a younger adult, I did hear of such cult behaviors ( Quebec) but as per usual, if it doesn't effect one personally..then one tends to ignore the issue..This whole issue is not an overnight phenomena but a product of ignorance:rolleye0001::lex_10:
Really so sad..and it is really about time to expsoe these sicko's!

Thanx for the update on what's happening in my Country!..Our system is so much different here!

:hide::021:

[Jute]

As a Canadian..I am so relieved that the authorities are watching..and hoefully holding these people to the law!..As a younger adult, I did hear of such cult behaviors ( Quebec) but as per usual, if it doesn't effect one personally..then one tends to ignore the issue..This whole issue is not an overnight phenomena but a product of ignorance:rolleye0001::lex_10:
Really so sad..and it is really about time to expsoe these sicko's!

Thanx for the update on what's happening in my Country!..Our system is so much different here!

:hide::021:

I read a very interesting article about the BC officials watching their FLDS group, but I can't find it now. :blondblush113268230 I did find a couple of others while I tried to find it. There is definitely pressure on the government to take action. It sounds like Canada would react to a complaint like Texas did-unlike what Arizona and Utah say. :mad:

Here are a couple of links, if you're interested. :)

B.C. pressed to crack down on polygamists
So far, no one has complained of wrongdoing by Canadian sect, province's attorney general says

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/418656


"Crackdown at the Canadian border urged"

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=28492&con=5&sec=26

[lyndawitha"y]

I read a very interesting article about the BC officials watching their FLDS group, but I can't find it now. :blondblush113268230 I did find a couple of others while I tried to find it. There is definitely pressure on the government to take action. It sounds like Canada would react to a complaint like Texas did-unlike what Arizona and Utah say. :mad:

Here are a couple of links, if you're interested. :)

B.C. pressed to crack down on polygamists
So far, no one has complained of wrongdoing by Canadian sect, province's attorney general says

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/418656


"Crackdown at the Canadian border urged"

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=28492&con=5&sec=26


Thankyou for those links. Jute....and greatfull something is being done..and I don't care just how anyone wants to cast hate on the media..in this case the more the better..it surely has the Canadian "Powers that Be"..taking notice!...maybe geting passports like any other human is expected to obtain...( course document fraud has been alledged??) Wouldn't it be great if something like finger prints/retinal ID was mandated..then this trafficking could be caught and proved in a court of law!!!

Yowza..My beliefs are getting some legs here!..Thanx for the links!

:6u8ky2o:

[Jute]

Thankyou for those links. Jute....and greatfull something is being done..and I don't care just how anyone wants to cast hate on the media..in this case the more the better..it surely has the Canadian "Powers that Be"..taking notice!...maybe geting passports like any other human is expected to obtain...( course document fraud has been alledged??) Wouldn't it be great if something like finger prints/retinal ID was mandated..then this trafficking could be caught and proved in a court of law!!!

Yowza..My beliefs are getting some legs here!..Thanx for the links!

:6u8ky2o:

One thing that I do remember about an article I read (not sure it's the same one I was looking for) is that you can walk through the woods between Canada and Idaho in about half an hour. No paperwork needed, unfortunately.

[lyndawitha"y]

One thing that I do remember about an article I read (not sure it's the same one I was looking for) is that you can walk through the woods between Canada and Idaho in about half an hour. No paperwork needed, unfortunately.

Truly a scary thing..just think about the terrorists that will walk those miles..Where is USA homeland security??.. I guess our friendly history between the US and Canada is yet another factor utilized by zealots!!

:0doh:

[GollyGeeWhiz]

One thing that I do remember about an article I read (not sure it's the same one I was looking for) is that you can walk through the woods between Canada and Idaho in about half an hour. No paperwork needed, unfortunately.

I read that, too, Jute. (Can't remember where, either - LOL.)

Isn't it great how the FLDS parents teach 'the children' that it's perfectly fine to bend any law (like in this case, crossing the border without paperwork) and tell any lie in their quest to keep their 'religion' alive and to please their prophet?

The parents should be held accountable for THIS act in addition to the others, IMO.

What 'fit' parent in mainstream society teaches a child to lie and break the law?

[Jute]

I read that, too, Jute. (Can't remember where, either - LOL.)

Isn't it great how the FLDS parents teach 'the children' that it's perfectly fine to bend any law (like in this case, crossing the border without paperwork) and tell any lie in their quest to keep their 'religion' alive and to please their prophet?

The parents should be held accountable for THIS act in addition to the others, IMO.

What 'fit' parent in mainstream society teaches a child to lie and break the law?

This is one of the things that just makes my head want to explode when people talk about what wonderful parents the FLDS are. :mad: What parent raises children to lie and steal [bleed the beast] as part of their religion. :45024:

And people want to home school because public schools are so full of 'bad' people. I include liars and thieves in that definition. [Now I'll step off my soap box. :) ]

[GollyGeeWhiz]

This is one of the things that just makes my head want to explode when people talk about what wonderful parents the FLDS are. :mad: What parent raises children to lie and steal [bleed the beast] as part of their religion. :45024:

And people want to home school because public schools are so full of 'bad' people. I include liars and thieves in that definition. [Now I'll step off my soap box. :) ]

Ditto on the exploding head. :zm10: (Usually it ends up being just my mouth that explodes, though, :grin:)

[lyndawitha"y]

I read that, too, Jute. (Can't remember where, either - LOL.)

Isn't it great how the FLDS parents teach 'the children' that it's perfectly fine to bend any law (like in this case, crossing the border without paperwork) and tell any lie in their quest to keep their 'religion' alive and to please their prophet?

The parents should be held accountable for THIS act in addition to the others, IMO.

What 'fit' parent in mainstream society teaches a child to lie and break the law?

The big problem is that they teach those facts..just don't bother to mention it's against he law..oh and by the way.."If asked your are just visiting relatives' should never ever be accepted as a reason for travelling across borders..especially in a vehicle with many people in the vehicle..but what scares me is that they will resort to one man/one child transporation...I guess that's where the proper documentaion..( better still Retinal ID/finger print ID).is so IMPORTANT...however..either way travelling over the border should be made as difficult as possible and not an inch should be given these holier than thou reps to enter either way..Enough is enough!:eyebrow1qb::lex_10:

[Cat]

What 'fit' parent in mainstream society teaches a child to lie and break the law?

None that I know personally.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

What 'fit' parent in mainstream society teaches a child to lie and break the law?

None that I know personally.

Granted, there are a lot of unfit parents in mainstream society, but as a society, we don't condone their behavior. (We probably overlook or excuse it too often, but that's a whole other topic.) And thus the difference between what happens out here vs. what happens inside the FLDS sect.

Uh ... I think I'm starting to repeat myself. :blondblush113268230

[Tracian]

What 'fit' parent in mainstream society teaches a child to lie and break the law?

None that I know personally.



Well, I hate to bring this up, but lots of parents teach their children things that basically against society at least to be PC would reject.

Card carrying members of the KKK have children, and teach them horrible things, their are parents that are in the army of God that teach their children it is okay to murder doctors that perform Abortions, and then their is also the Wesboro Baptist Church that puts toddlers in "God hates Fags' tee-shirts and protest military funerals.

Now, I realize these are not 'main stream' parents, but if we really care about abuse, let's be really honest, while this is 'out there' this group is not alone in the systematic abuse and indoctrination of children.

[Jute]

Granted, there are a lot of unfit parents in mainstream society, but as a society, we don't condone their behavior. (We probably overlook or excuse it too often, but that's a whole other topic.) And thus the difference between what happens out here vs. what happens inside the FLDS sect.

Uh ... I think I'm starting to repeat myself. :blondblush113268230

You're right, Golly, in business it's SOP to tell white lies and we all know it and let it go. That doesn't make right. People rant and rave about 'welfare fraud' by people, but it is rarely the result of being taught that it your moral duty to [your] god [Jeffs] to do so. And you'll get to a higher level in heaven if you do it. :mad:

I'm repeating myself, too-but it's been sitting in my head. Feels good to let it out. :girl_haha:

[Jute]

Well, I hate to bring this up, but lots of parents teach their children things that basically against society at least to be PC would reject.

Card carrying members of the KKK have children, and teach them horrible things, their are parents that are in the army of God that teach their children it is okay to murder doctors that perform Abortions, and then their is also the Wesboro Baptist Church that puts toddlers in "God hates Fags' tee-shirts and protest military funerals.

Now, I realize these are not 'main stream' parents, but if we really care about abuse, let's be really honest, while this is 'out there' this group is not alone in the systematic abuse and indoctrination of children.

There is no doubt that you are correct, Tracian. As abhorent as these teachings are, the parents have the right to do what they wish until there is an indication of physical danger. Texas believed the FLDS to be at risk of physical and-or sexual abuse, the other issues I personally object to don't really matter. They just make me angry.

[Cat]

There is no doubt that you are correct, Tracian. As abhorent as these teachings are, the parents have the right to do what they wish until there is an indication of physical danger. Texas believed the FLDS to be at risk of physical and-or sexual abuse, the other issues I personally object to don't really matter. They just make me angry.

Well, I still don't KNOW any of those people personally. Yes, there's KKK and all the rest that Tracian mentioned. I guess I don't consider them fit parents teaching HATE.

[Tracian]

There is no doubt that you are correct, Tracian. As abhorent as these teachings are, the parents have the right to do what they wish until there is an indication of physical danger. Texas believed the FLDS to be at risk of physical and-or sexual abuse, the other issues I personally object to don't really matter. They just make me angry.


I understand that they 'believed' but after other families have been torn apart due to beliefs, and the lack of understanding of other belief systems, proof makes me sleep better at night.

But if we are focusing on what may happen, then the groups I have mentioned come into play as well. What about the Army of God, grooming their sons to become murderers? What about the Westboro Church grooms their children to become 'gay bashers', and in both cases these children end up in prisons because of their upbringing.

Again, I don't like what the FLDS believe, but as long as we have freedom of religion, they are allowed to believe it, and as long as people are innocent until being proven guilty, even the FLDS, we have to honor that, and so does the courts, as well as CPS.

We are not nor can we be tried for something that 'might' happen or what we 'may' choose to do, or believe is the right thing to do.

What I really don't understand, is with so many that escaped, that have information, including mass graves, have not been taken seriously by LE, that is something that should be investigated, properly.

[Tracian]

Well, I still don't KNOW any of those people personally. Yes, there's KKK and all the rest that Tracian mentioned. I guess I don't consider them fit parents teaching HATE.


Well then, how many raids have occurred on these folks?

[Cat]

Well then, how many raids have occurred on these folks?

Probably none, Tracian, more's the pity. This is just my personal opinion. :)
Have a good night now.

[Tracian]

Probably none, Tracian, more's the pity. This is just my personal opinion. :)
Have a good night now.


Always a pleasure talking with you Cat, and I still love the avatar.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

Well, I hate to bring this up, but lots of parents teach their children things that basically against society at least to be PC would reject.

Card carrying members of the KKK have children, and teach them horrible things, their are parents that are in the army of God that teach their children it is okay to murder doctors that perform Abortions, and then their is also the Wesboro Baptist Church that puts toddlers in "God hates Fags' tee-shirts and protest military funerals.

Now, I realize these are not 'main stream' parents, but if we really care about abuse, let's be really honest, while this is 'out there' this group is not alone in the systematic abuse and indoctrination of children.

I'm not nearly as familiar with the day-to-day lifestyles of the groups you mention as I (now) am about the FLDS. And I don't know much about FLDS enclaves beyond Short Creek and Eldorado, either. But it seems to me that the FLDS 'capture' their audience in ways that the other groups don't, and I'm talking primarily logistically for the moment.

Short Creek was/is 99.999999% FLDS - everyone in and around the community, including law enforcement, medical professionals, elected officials, etc. was 'in on it.'

At Eldorado, the sect literally walled themselves in so as to not just limit, but entirely remove the influence of the outside world.

Most groups similar to those you mentioned, to my knowledge, do not or are not capable of isolating themselves to the extent the FLDS does. So while the children of those other groups certainly receive indoctrination at home from their parents and/or at church, they still can't help but be exposed to other (hopefully saner) outside influences. That, IMO, gives them a glimmer of hope of making better decisions for themselves than their parents/preachers have made for them.

And I don't know that other groups home school to a certain grade (8th in the FLDS from what I've read) and consider it done. Keeping the FLDS kids 'stupid' in terms of a formal education isn't something I've heard that other groups practice. Nor do I know of other groups that practice the subjugation of women to the extent the FLDS does.

So it's the combination of controlling forces, and in particular the physical isolation, IMO, that distinguishes the FLDS from other groups with harmful beliefs and practices. As indoctrination goes, the FLDS seem to have it down to a rather perfect science.

[StoneFox]

Well then, how many raids have occurred on these folks?

They aren't living as one family on a compound either. They go after the KKK and others by serving warrants as their addresses. That is what Texas did too...one address.

[grammybears]

Over the last few years the FLDS has made it known that they want nothing to do with the outside world. There were boys being kicked out and girls and women running away. But because they had their own police force so to speak the runaways were always returned.
Now I am from Utah and I do not understand all the whys and what fors that Utah has done nothing to help these children.
Maybe Utah and Arizona should never have made an agreement verbally with the FLDS that they would not go after them for polygamy. But because of the underage so called marriages I believe it is time that these two states started cracking down on them. I know nothing can be done about abuse unless someone reports it but when there is a report of abuse then somebody needs to step in.

I have also wondered why Doc Barlow has not been called on the carpet for not reporting abuses that have been going on for a very long time. With the main stream of society if someone knows of abuse and does not report it they are prosecuted , so why should the FLDS get better treatment then the rest of the world.

Anybody who uses their religion as a way to get around the laws should be punished for their crimes. They cannot have it both ways. You are doing things legally or you are not.

just my opinion

[Tracian]

Number of underage mothers claimed by Texas continues to dwindle


SAN ANGELO, Texas - Tina Louise Steed had just one question for a judge who declared her an adult Thursday morning.
"I'm wondering how come they wouldn't believe my ID in the first place?" she asked Judge Jay Weatherby.
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services acknowledged that Tina Louise and three other "disputed minors" are actually adult women - admissions that came as the Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled it never had sufficient evidence to remove any children from a polygamous sect.

The state also alleged that ranch residents, members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, have physically abused and emotionally neglected their children. No evidence of either has been presented in the dozens of individual hearings held so far this week.
Before the appellate ruling, attorneys for the parents and children complained the plans were vague and overly broad, but those arguments fell flat before the five judges hearing the cases.
The hearings were hobbled by mix ups like this one:
David Barlow Steed came to Texas to help support his sister, Lori,whose child is now in state custody. When he arrived at the courthouse, a baliff wrote his name on charging papers identifying him as the father of his sister's child.
Just like that, Steed, who has never lived in Texas or been to the YFZ Ranch, found himself embroiled in the case. Weatherby planned to sign a document releasing Steed from the case Thursday afternoon.

http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9346914


Lawyer: FLDS girl isn't pregnant

SAN ANGELO, Texas - A lawyer for a 14-year-old FLDS girl argues her client - listed by the state of Texas as an underage mother - is not pregnant and does not have children.
Attorney Andrea Sloan with the Texas Advocacy Project said the girl has taken a pregnancy test to confirm she is not pregnant.
Texas child welfare officials originally claimed 31 girls from the YFZ Ranch between the ages 14 to 17 were either pregnant, have children or both.
So far, however, they have acknowledged that 11 girls are actually adults. At least six more are likely to get that designation today, when status hearings resume at the Tom Green County Courthouse.
Sloan said her client is the youngest girl included on the list. While a judge told her the girl's status was not relevant to Wednesday's hearing, Sloan said the record should be corrected because Texas Child Protective Services has used the girl to mislead the public. Doing so would improve the mother's chances of regaining custody of the girl, Sloan added.

And the requirements may set parents up for failure, attorneys said, as they crisscross Texas trying to hold down jobs and visit their children.
Parents' suggestions for modifying the plans have been rejected by the judges.
Caseworkers acknowledged they had little to do with crafting the one-size-fits-all plan, which they said was put together by "culturally sensitive" experts.
A CPS spokeswoman told The Salt Lake Tribune that psychologists and psychiatrists from across the country helped write the plan, but said specific names of those individuals weren't available. The plan calls for the parents to undergo psychological evaluations, take parenting classes, get jobs and live independently.
Many FLDS women have already moved, gotten jobs and begun lining up evaluations in hopes they will be accepted by CPS.

http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9343001