Are the Women Victims or Perpetrators?

[Tracian]

Like most of you I have been watching Nancy Grace's coverage.

Some are saying the women should be treated as victims, some say they should be treated as perpetrators.

What do you guys think?

[Texas53]

Some of the older women know what to expect and what happens once the girls reach a certain age. The younger girls who are "ambushed" to become the young wives of the men were not told what to expect and are scared. JMHO

[GollyGeeWhiz]

I didn't vote, because I can't really make up my mind on this issue.

They are technically perpetrators as soon as they become involved in adult activities within the sect (since so many of the adult activities are geared towards control and abuse of women and children).

My problem with the whole thing, though, is that I don't know how much 'normal behavior' we can expect from people who have never seen anything but abnormal behavior. I don't know how we can expect some magic internal mental or psychological switch to flip at age 'X' inside people who have grown up in the cult. If that's all they know, how do they come to know anything else ... and how do we hold them accountable?

So much of our behavior and beliefs are a result of the nurturing we received - our environment, in other words. I see it in my own life every day - I see the result of my upbringing in both my strengths and my weaknesses, what I know and what I don't know. And compared to the women of the FLDS, I had a normal upbringing.

Even if somewhere deep down inside their maternal instincts tell them that what is happening to their children inside the cult is not right, I don't know how we can expect them to follow THOSE instincts vs. the overwhelming amount of brainwashing they've been subjected to literally every minute of every day of their lives.

I think about this whole situation a LOT.

[Roamer]

You summed it up very well, GGW.

[awakening2lite]

I didn't vote, because I can't really make up my mind on this issue.

They are technically perpetrators as soon as they become involved in adult activities within the sect (since so many of the adult activities are geared towards control and abuse of women and children).

My problem with the whole thing, though, is that I don't know how much 'normal behavior' we can expect from people who have never seen anything but abnormal behavior. I don't know how we can expect some magic internal mental or psychological switch to flip at age 'X' inside people who have grown up in the cult. If that's all they know, how do they come to know anything else ... and how do we hold them accountable?

So much of our behavior and beliefs are a result of the nurturing we received - our environment, in other words. I see it in my own life every day - I see the result of my upbringing in both my strengths and my weaknesses, what I know and what I don't know. And compared to the women of the FLDS, I had a normal upbringing.

Even if somewhere deep down inside their maternal instincts tell them that what is happening to their children inside the cult is not right, I don't know how we can expect them to follow THOSE instincts vs. the overwhelming amount of brainwashing they've been subjected to literally every minute of every day of their lives.

I think about this whole situation a LOT.

Couldn't the same be said of the men who as boys were abused and groomed to become abusers and taught they are doing it in the name of their religion?

I think they are all (as adults) abusers or enablers and as children they were the abused.

However, ignorance has never been an acceptable excuse in the courtroom. Many of the people who have been convicted of abuse were, as children, abused.

If those who are abused abuse or enable the abuse of others, there can be no good ending for them.

[Tracian]

Awakening brings up a good point about abusers growing up to be abusers, but IMO, this is completely different.

These people are rasied from birth to believe that this is what God intended, it is as natural to them as breathing.

[awakening2lite]

Awakening brings up a good point about abusers growing up to be abusers, but IMO, this is completely different.

These people are rasied from birth to believe that this is what God intended, it is as natural to them as breathing.

Hi Tracian, I can't help but take that thought to the next step and ask if the men should be deemed not guilty of abuse because, they like the women, were raised to believe they acted as God intended?

[Tracian]

Hi Tracian, I can't help but take that thought to the next step and ask if the men should be deemed not guilty of abuse because, they like the women, were raised to believe they acted as God intended?


Normally to be found guilty of a crime, there has to be intent.

Bear with me for a minute:

If you believe because of the way you are raised, and because you live isolated, where you cannot form other opinions, where you don't have the basic working knowledge of what is societies norm, further it is ingrained in you that society is evil, and it trying to lead you astray, could this not be considered in some ways diminished capacity?

[awakening2lite]

Normally to be found guilty of a crime, there has to be intent.

Bear with me for a minute:

If you believe because of the way you are raised, and because you live isolated, where you cannot form other opinions, where you don't have the basic working knowledge of what is societies norm, further it is ingrained in you that society is evil, and it trying to lead you astray, could this not be considered in some ways diminished capacity?

Intent? We find drunk drivers guilty of manslaughter all the time and it isn't necessary to prove they set out (with intent) to murder with their vehicle. (Just one example)

I have a hard time believing diminished capacity because they do go out into the world and they do know the laws of the world well enough to cover up and lie. They do know what they do is wrong, albeit their religion may be used as a vehicle to justify their own actions, but they do know better than to admit those actions to outsiders. That isn't what I would define as diminished capacity.

[Tracian]

Intent? We find drunk drivers guilty of manslaughter all the time and it isn't necessary to prove they set out (with intent) to murder with their vehicle. (Just one example)

I have a hard time believing diminished capacity because they do go out into the world and they do know the laws of the world well enough to cover up and lie. They do know what they do is wrong, albeit their religion may be used as a vehicle to justify their own actions, but they do know better than to admit those actions to outsiders. That isn't what I would define as diminished capacity.


Intent is needed to prove some crimes, it can be argued that when the person went to the bar, got drunk, and because he/she did not have alternate transportation, they had formed the intent to drive drunk, before even taking the first shot.

I find the entire sub-culture a very difficult part of this case; further, I honestly believe the law against pologamy is really a ridiculous one, standing on it's own; IMO, the problem with 'pologamy' is when you consider possible crimes that may spring from the practice, such as, child brides, forced marriage, welfare fraud, not simply being 'legally' married to one person, and then spiritually married to others.

However, getting back to the women, if it is believed as has been reported that they are 'held captive' then how can the women be held accountable regardless of age? Even the women that have come out in support of the FLDS, could be doing so because they are worried about other family members on other compounds that could be punished for their coming forward.

[awakening2lite]

Intent is needed to prove some crimes, it can be argued that when the person went to the bar, got drunk, and because he/she did not have alternate transportation, they had formed the intent to drive drunk, before even taking the first shot.

I find the entire sub-culture a very difficult part of this case; further, I honestly believe the law against pologamy is really a ridiculous one, standing on it's own; IMO, the problem with 'pologamy' is when you consider possible crimes that may spring from the practice, such as, child brides, forced marriage, welfare fraud, not simply being 'legally' married to one person, and then spiritually married to others.

However, getting back to the women, if it is believed as has been reported that they are 'held captive' then how can the women be held accountable regardless of age? Even the women that have come out in support of the FLDS, could be doing so because they are worried about other family members on other compounds that could be punished for their coming forward.

Manslaughter does lack intent and malice.

Pologamy is a crime if they are legally married to more than one person, which they are not.

I don't think they are held captive. The women in Texas could have left the group or asked for help, but haven't. They say it is their religion that binds them together.

If you know your child is being abused and you fail to protect that child, you are accountable. If you abuse your child, you are accountable. We don't have laws that excuse abuse under certain conditions because of perverse values of a person or group.

We need to stop abuse, not excuse it.

I find it somewhat hypocritical to blame the men for carrying out abuse and not the women for enabling it, when they both claim they are acting out the laws of their religion.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

Couldn't the same be said of the men who as boys were abused and groomed to become abusers and taught they are doing it in the name of their religion?

I think they are all (as adults) abusers or enablers and as children they were the abused.

However, ignorance has never been an acceptable excuse in the courtroom. Many of the people who have been convicted of abuse were, as children, abused.

If those who are abused abuse or enable the abuse of others, there can be no good ending for them.

ITA. (And that's why I used 'people' in my own post = men & women alike.)

[GollyGeeWhiz]

I think that in the case of the FLDS, in the interest of starting somewhere in an effort to snap them out of their bizarre, brainwashed, immoral and illegal behaviors, as a society we really have no choice but to 'make examples of' a some of them - regardless of the unfortunate circumstances in which they were raised and therefore their probable ignorance about how harmful many of their beliefs really are.

Perhaps it should come in the form of more lenient punishment, especially for those who are willing to be deprogrammed and commit to learning how to mainstream themselves and their children into larger society.

I would rather 'sacrifice' a certain number of the current FLDS adults, who arguably can't be held accountable due to the brainwashing they've undergone by the cult, than to allow even one more child to grow up in that environment, internalizing those beliefs.

Hope that makes sense ... :girl_sad:

[Tracian]

Manslaughter does lack intent and malice.

Pologamy is a crime if they are legally married to more than one person, which they are not.

I don't think they are held captive. The women in Texas could have left the group or asked for help, but haven't. They say it is their religion that binds them together.

If you know your child is being abused and you fail to protect that child, you are accountable. If you abuse your child, you are accountable. We don't have laws that excuse abuse under certain conditions because of perverse values of a person or group.

We need to stop abuse, not excuse it.

I find it somewhat hypocritical to blame the men for carrying out abuse and not the women for enabling it, when they both claim they are acting out the laws of their religion.

Well, I am just saying, what Jessop says, according to her there are armed guards keeping women captive, and those that do escape know that their family members will be abused for it.

I will find the interview.

[StoneFox]

The men, especially, know what the laws are, know they are willingly breaking the laws, and I am sure when they take these young child brides, know they are hurting them.

I believe the older women know too. What horrifies me is that the older women do not counsel the younger women about marriage, sex, etc. They throw them into the wolves den and offer no compassion when these young girls are terrified and confused.

[PatC]

Awakening brings up a good point about abusers growing up to be abusers, but IMO, this is completely different.

These people are rasied from birth to believe that this is what God intended, it is as natural to them as breathing.


Good point. It's very hard for us to conceive of what it's like to grow up in that environment.

I think it's right to protect the minors from forced marriages, however, we're being hypercritical to the extreme if we act like we don't know underage girls OUTSIDE the sect are having babies all the time.

I did a quick search for statistics and found THIS FROM NORTH CAROLINA
(http://www.schs.state.nc.us/SCHS/pdf/sb14.pdf)

The data are from 1996, but it still makes my point. That year, in NC, there were 6908 reported pregnancies to teens. Of those, 1550 were to teens UNDER 18.

Now, I didn't search, but I'll bet a cookie that there were not 1550 Statutory Rape cases filed.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

The men, especially, know what the laws are, know they are willingly breaking the laws, and I am sure when they take these young child brides, know they are hurting them.

I believe the older women know too. What horrifies me is that the older women do not counsel the younger women about marriage, sex, etc. They throw them into the wolves den and offer no compassion when these young girls are terrified and confused.

Sex isn't something they speak about at all, apparently. And for all the sex they're having, they leave their LDS underwear on while having it (both sexes). This is definitely not sexy sex they're having.

:attention: If you have a touchy stomach, you might want to skip this ...

I can't remember where I read this, and I'm not sure it was FLDS-related but was definitely polygamy-related, BUT ... there were 5 sister wives in this group. They all slept in the same room, WITH the husband - they had some sort of double bunk bed arrangement. The man, his 'real' wife (the first and 'head' wife), and his other wife of the week slept on the lower bunk. The other 3 sister wives slept up top.

The wife of the week slept between the man and the 'real' wife. And yes - they had sex - WITH the 'real' wife right there next to them and the other three right above them.

I'll spare you the other details I recall.

FREAKS. ME. OUT. :thud2:

[PatC]

Well, you know, that would certainly NOT be my life choice and I would NEVER live like that but....

I really don't care how they worship and/or live. If they want to worship Warren Jeffs, that's fine with me. I DO think that they need to have the right to make an INFORMED choice (which means they must be mature (old) enough to make an informed choice) though. Beyond that, as far I'm concerned, "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will".

[Tracian]

Sex isn't something they speak about at all, apparently. And for all the sex they're having, they leave their LDS underwear on while having it (both sexes). This is definitely not sexy sex they're having.

:attention: If you have a touchy stomach, you might want to skip this ...

I can't remember where I read this, and I'm not sure it was FLDS-related but was definitely polygamy-related, BUT ... there were 5 sister wives in this group. They all slept in the same room, WITH the husband - they had some sort of double bunk bed arrangement. The man, his 'real' wife (the first and 'head' wife), and his other wife of the week slept on the lower bunk. The other 3 sister wives slept up top.

The wife of the week slept between the man and the 'real' wife. And yes - they had sex - WITH the 'real' wife right there next to them and the other three right above them.

I'll spare you the other details I recall.

FREAKS. ME. OUT. :thud2:


I agree that it is bizzare, but outside the term 'pologamy' many people engage in sexual acts that are out of the normal 'couple' There are 'swingers' 'threesomes' (sorry don't speak French, LOL) and those are not 'crimes' (adults of course) The crime only becomes such when a man claims he has two or more wives, this is the logic I just don't understand.

Also, there are many other religious groups that do practice pologamy (just agreeing with your former statement :) )

[StoneFox]

Sex isn't something they speak about at all, apparently. And for all the sex they're having, they leave their LDS underwear on while having it (both sexes). This is definitely not sexy sex they're having.

:attention: If you have a touchy stomach, you might want to skip this ...

I can't remember where I read this, and I'm not sure it was FLDS-related but was definitely polygamy-related, BUT ... there were 5 sister wives in this group. They all slept in the same room, WITH the husband - they had some sort of double bunk bed arrangement. The man, his 'real' wife (the first and 'head' wife), and his other wife of the week slept on the lower bunk. The other 3 sister wives slept up top.

The wife of the week slept between the man and the 'real' wife. And yes - they had sex - WITH the 'real' wife right there next to them and the other three right above them.

I'll spare you the other details I recall.

FREAKS. ME. OUT. :thud2:

:puke:

But, if the older women had ANY compassion AT ALL, wouldn't they at the minimum not want these young girls to experience the same horror they did.

Oh, now I pixxed myself off thinking about that. :mad:

The older women are as much to blame as the old~child molesting~pedophile~inbred~mutant men!

[Tracian]

Well, you know, that would certainly NOT be my life choice and I would NEVER live like that but....

I really don't care how they worship and/or live. If they want to worship Warren Jeffs, that's fine with me. I DO think that they need to have the right to make an INFORMED choice (which means they must be mature (old) enough to make an informed choice) though. Beyond that, as far I'm concerned, "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will".



I agree. This entire case brings to the table many issues. (now just talking about the right to raise a child in your choosen religion, not the allegations of abuse)

I am concerned by the wording of the CPS complaint, because most of us have raised our children according to our belief system, to use that as a premisis for possible 'grooming' or 'abuse' without the 'meat and potatoes' to support that claim, IMO is on shaky ground.

[awakening2lite]

ITA. (And that's why I used 'people' in my own post = men & women alike.)

Thanks for straightening me out.

I don't see how we can blame the abuser and not the enabler. They (men and women) were raised believing what they do is right in the eye of their god and they have proven, by deception and silence, they know it is wrong by the laws of man. The abuse could not take place without the mother's enabling it. One hand holds the other.

Threats or not, there comes a time when the abused and the enabler have to say "NO MORE" and get help. The group in Texas has had the best opportunity ever (lawyers & CPS) to speak out and change their lives.

The only innocents are the children.

[Tracian]

:puke:

But, if the older women had ANY compassion AT ALL, wouldn't they at the minimum not want these young girls to experience the same horror they did.

Oh, now I pixxed myself off thinking about that. :mad:

The older women are as much to blame as the old~child molesting~pedophile~inbred~mutant men!


It is impossible for any of us to understand or comprehend the reasoning of the older women.

I remember my grandmother was raised to believe that everything that happened was 'God's plan' Her mother was literally a mail order bride from Lithuania, sent here to marry a man in his late 40's or early 50's, she was only 16 years old, and as a devout Catholic, even when he beat her, she was obliged to stay with him.

I know some people until this day that are devout in their faith that believe the suffering on earth is rewarded ten-fold in heaven.

There are religions that don't allow medical care for anyone, including children, and when one of those children die, not every child from that church is taken away, even though members will go to court and testify in defense of the parents that lost their child.

Indoctrination, especially from a young age is very damaging, when you include a God or eternal salvation in paradise, and a vengeful, punishing God...it is a tough nut to crack.

[awakening2lite]

<snip>

I am concerned by the wording of the CPS complaint, because most of us have raised our children according to our belief system, to use that as a premisis for possible 'grooming' or 'abuse' without the 'meat and potatoes' to support that claim, IMO is on shaky ground.

On this we agree, somewhat..

I have always questioned an anonymous call having the power to remove children without any physical evidence or testimony or interview to show for it. If CPS feels there is evidence they had better put it in gear and bring it to court.

I have always believed it is better to err in the favor of the child and I continue to believe that.

Since there have been rumors of the sect using counterfeit docs, I hope before they return a single child, someone will verify the documentation to make sure that child is turned over to the correct adults.

[awakening2lite]

It is impossible for any of us to understand or comprehend the reasoning of the older women.

I remember my grandmother was raised to believe that everything that happened was 'God's plan' Her mother was literally a mail order bride from Lithuania, sent here to marry a man in his late 40's or early 50's, she was only 16 years old, and as a devout Catholic, even when he beat her, she was obliged to stay with him.

I know some people until this day that are devout in their faith that believe the suffering on earth is rewarded ten-fold in heaven.

There are religions that don't allow medical care for anyone, including children, and when one of those children die, not every child from that church is taken away, even though members will go to court and testify in defense of the parents that lost their child.

Indoctrination, especially from a young age is very damaging, when you include a God or eternal salvation in paradise, and a vengeful, punishing God...it is a tough nut to crack.

That may well be their only defense, but it does not excuse the harm done to a child or allowing harm to be done to a child. That's where the laws of man come into play.

It isn't necessary to understand the laws to be prosecuted by them, that's how attorneys earn their fees. This group of mother's have had access to attorneys; they know.

One would hope that a mother's love would be enough to protect a child from harm.

[Tracian]

On this we agree, somewhat..

I have always questioned an anonymous call having the power to remove children without any physical evidence or testimony or interview to show for it. If CPS feels there is evidence they had better put it in gear and bring it to court.

I have always believed it is better to err in the favor of the child and I continue to believe that.

Since there have been rumors of the sect using counterfeit docs, I hope before they return a single child, someone will verify the documentation to make sure that child is turned over to the correct adults.


IMO, the AG should have launched an investigation into the frauds that maybe going on within this community, if they could prove fraud, such as Welfare, etc, then they could have arrested those guilty, and then CPS would have had a clear avenue to take the children into custody, due to the fact that the parents were arrested.

I don't know about Texas, but when my hubby's exwife was committed, even though my hubby had 'joint legal custody' CPS had to do a check on him, and me before CPS could release the child to us.

IMO, if this was handled in such a way, it would have made it much easier for the courts to keep the children out of harm's way; but using 'speculation' of possible 'future' crimes, was just not the proper way to protect these children.

[Tracian]

That may well be their only defense, but it does not excuse the harm done to a child or allowing harm to be done to a child. That's where the laws of man come into play.

It isn't necessary to understand the laws to be prosecuted by them, that's how attorneys earn their fees. This group of mother's have had access to attorneys; they know.

One would hope that a mother's love would be enough to protect a child from harm.


Therein lies the 'rub' These mother's could very well believe they are protecting their children's eternal soul and ever lasting life.

I mean Andrea Yates murdered her children, and due to expert testimony she was finally just placed in a mental hospital.

Delana Laney, murdered two of her children, because she believed God told her too, and was aquitted of murder charges because of her state of mind, which included much testimony from her Minister.

I expect that the experts will be crawling out of the woodwork should any of this go to trial regarding child abuse.

[awakening2lite]

IMO, the AG should have launched an investigation into the frauds that maybe going on within this community, if they could prove fraud, such as Welfare, etc, then they could have arrested those guilty, and then CPS would have had a clear avenue to take the children into custody, due to the fact that the parents were arrested.

I don't know about Texas, but when my hubby's exwife was committed, even though my hubby had 'joint legal custody' CPS had to do a check on him, and me before CPS could release the child to us.

IMO, if this was handled in such a way, it would have made it much easier for the courts to keep the children out of harm's way; but using 'speculation' of possible 'future' crimes, was just not the proper way to protect these children.

Utah is conducting an investigation of organized crime. Az and the FBI are also involved. When this case broke there was an article (I posted way back when) which stated they were looking into this group in Texas with an eye to those crimes. The undercover person reported to be inside this group may have been working with that goal in mind. That would explain why the undercover person had nothing to do with the raid that took place based on a phone call.

From what I understood, you are correct, the investigation was centered on state and government checks paid for support and I suppose for other purposes. I suspect the organized crime far more complicated than government support checks.

[awakening2lite]

Therein lies the 'rub' These mother's could very well believe they are protecting their children's eternal soul and ever lasting life.

I mean Andrea Yates murdered her children, and due to expert testimony she was finally just placed in a mental hospital.

Delana Laney, murdered two of her children, because she believed God told her too, and was aquitted of murder charges because of her state of mind, which included much testimony from her Minister.

I expect that the experts will be crawling out of the woodwork should any of this go to trial regarding child abuse.




Those women were deranged. I seriously doubt an entire sect is mentally deranged.

[awakening2lite]

BTW Tracian, it is fun to post with you again!

[Tracian]

Those women were deranged. I seriously doubt an entire sect is mentally deranged.


I guess that is a matter of opinion. I personally think to follow someone blindly is a sign of mental derangment, though not always dangerous.

[StoneFox]

No evidence of welfare fraud by the occupants of YFZ ranch.


http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2008/04/28/was_there_welfare_fraud_in_eld.html

By Corrie MacLaggan (http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2008/04/28/was_there_welfare_fraud_in_eld.html#postcomment) | Monday, April 28, 2008, 03:05 PM
Readers have been asking whether residents of the polygamous ranch in Eldorado run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have relied heavily on public assistance.
They ask because FLDS communities in other states have been accused of welfare fraud. For example, the Los Angeles Times reported in 2001 (http://rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy69.html) that as many as half the residents of the FLDS center of Hildale, Utah, were on public assistance. The fraud comes in when plural wives claim not to know where their husbands are, the article says.
But it doesn’t appear that the residents of the YFZ Ranch in West Texas relied heavily on public assistance. Though statistics aren’t available for individual families or addresses for privacy reasons, Stephanie Goodman, a spokeswoman for the Texas Health and Human Services Commission, gave me these numbers for Schleicher County, which includes Eldorado. Keep in mind these numbers are for the entire 2,800-resident county and that easily more than 500 people lived at the ranch before the state pulled out the children during the recent raid.

Schleicher County TANF cases (cash assistance program): There are no current cases.
Food stamps: 122 recipients in September 2005; 203 recipients in April 2008
Children’s Health Insurance Program: 111 children in January 2003; 63 children in April 2008
Medicaid: 262 people (including 160 children) in September 2006; 283 people (including 182 children) in April 2008
These numbers leave a lot of questions and certainly don’t give us a definitive explanation of how common it was at the ranch to be on public assistance. But clearly, everyone there wasn’t enrolled in Medicaid.

[Cat]

I think that in the case of the FLDS, in the interest of starting somewhere in an effort to snap them out of their bizarre, brainwashed, immoral and illegal behaviors, as a society we really have no choice but to 'make examples of' a some of them - regardless of the unfortunate circumstances in which they were raised and therefore their probable ignorance about how harmful many of their beliefs really are.

Perhaps it should come in the form of more lenient punishment, especially for those who are willing to be deprogrammed and commit to learning how to mainstream themselves and their children into larger society.

I would rather 'sacrifice' a certain number of the current FLDS adults, who arguably can't be held accountable due to the brainwashing they've undergone by the cult, than to allow even one more child to grow up in that environment, internalizing those beliefs.

Hope that makes sense ... :girl_sad:

It makes a lot of sense to me, GGW. :yes2:

[GollyGeeWhiz]

:puke:

But, if the older women had ANY compassion AT ALL, wouldn't they at the minimum not want these young girls to experience the same horror they did.

Oh, now I pixxed myself off thinking about that. :mad:

The older women are as much to blame as the old~child molesting~pedophile~inbred~mutant men!

The only thing I can figure is that your definition of horror (and mine) is quite a bit different from theirs.

Seems like 99.9% of what they do is ritual. Including sex. It's more about serving the man, making babies, getting in line to be invited to the 3rd level of heaven or whatever by your husband.

I can't conceive of living any PART of the lives those women live, so the fact that the sexual aspect is equally unappetizing doesn't surprise me.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

I guess that is a matter of opinion. I personally think to follow someone blindly is a sign of mental derangment, though not always dangerous.

ITA. Makes sense to me that being brainwashed is a form of mental derangement - maybe temporary insanity? (Hopefully temporary.)

Of course, we're calling what has occurred with the FLDS women brainwashing, but we call it battered women's syndrome in other situations ... don't we? And also that thing that happens (can't think of the 'syndrome' name at the moment) to kidnap victims who begin to identify with their captors?

Anyhoo, it's all some form of impairment of ability to think independently, to rationalize, to understand the presence of danger, to seek safety.

That's how I view the FLDS women - but I realize part of that is because I come from a polar opposite point of view. Fierce independence, always questioning authority, etc. and so forth.

Cannot imagine living my life in the shadow of a man. Especially when I realize, through living WITH a man, how much more capable women are in so many ways.

Off my soapbox now, too. :022:

[Cat]

Stockholm Syndrome, GGW. :)

BTY, I love your posts. They are always thoughtful and very informative.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

Stockholm Syndrome, GGW. :)

BTY, I love your posts. They are always thoughtful and very informative.

Stockholm ... that's it! Thanks, Cat. And thanks for the nice compliment. :love0085:

[Tracian]

Wow, the poll is pretty much split....

thanks everyone for discussing this and voting...I am looking forward to more thoughts on this issue as the case develops.

Agree or disagree, you all Rock and offer really excellent points

[Cat]

Stockholm ... that's it! Thanks, Cat. And thanks for the nice compliment. :love0085:

You deserve compliments. :love0085:

[StoneFox]

I took this from a blog I came across. It kind of sums up my feelings on the women that KNOW what will happen to the young girls and do nothing to protect them.

http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/04/21/the-women-of-flds-teary-eyed-defenders-of-the-church-of-child-rape/

"When those weeping mothers in quaint cotton dresses appear on the morning shows again tomorrow, when they show the world the squeaky-clean classrooms and community kitchens of that compound in El Dorado, try to see past the home-baked bread and the tear-stained faces. Try to see what those pathetic, brainwashed women, victims and perpetrators themselves, are truly showing all of us: the daylight side of a world of nighttime terror, the mechanics of a rape camp."

:1187603408.CR.Mothe

[GollyGeeWhiz]

Thanks for another great link, Katy.

Let's call a spade a spade FGS. Beautifully stated.:hifive:

[StoneFox]

Thanks for another great link, Katy.

Let's call a spade a spade FGS. Beautifully stated.:hifive:

:girl_haha: I'm supposed to be doing things around the house and getting things together for our trip. I just can't quit reading about the FLDS and their atrocities. One thing I am finding since the Texas raid are more articles of research people are doing on their own. I am glad to see there is a considerable amount of righteous outrage at what is going on.

[lyndawitha"y]

Thanks for another great link, Katy.

Let's call a spade a spade FGS. Beautifully stated.:hifive:

I initialy voted here with my heart and do feel that these mom's are victims..but do get and understand that as adults, their decisions and promotion of child sex/slave/brooding is just so dispicable..that they are responsible...Ignorance is not bliss and I have to believe it is just fear that keeps them in check ..I have to wonder since the women and children can be reassigned willy nilly by "His Majesty"..they must feel fear to be abandoned, fear of punishment..and since the records of marriages, births, deaths are done within..just how accurate is it?..I think if I lived under those terms I would wonder how many missing (moved away) people as to actually where they are?..I hate to say this..banishment is one thing..but purging, causing abortion or worse possible murder:missing:..I think I would be completely brow beaten into submission..well, maybe get a little agitated..but no less in fear!

The "Leaders of this particular Cult should be punished to the enth degree..and the women no doubt could be re-educated..and put to work assisting "Care Giving" mode only and under supervision..I don't believe they are evil..but misguided, programed and have absolutely NO any understanding of freedom..So we will see..but it is hard to watch these women (Stepford Wives) blasphamy such rediculous claims..it is simply rediculous!:madranting94dp:

LMS

[GollyGeeWhiz]

:girl_haha: I'm supposed to be doing things around the house and getting things together for our trip. I just can't quit reading about the FLDS and their atrocities. One thing I am finding since the Texas raid are more articles of research people are doing on their own. I am glad to see there is a considerable amount of righteous outrage at what is going on.

Same here about the outrage. Bout dang time.

I've got the Indy 500 on -- poor Danica Patrick just got ousted from the race by a rookie. And she ain't happy. :madranting94dp:

When she got out of her car, she started walking the wrong way down pit row until security and her handlers realized she was heading for the rookie's pit, LOL! She was gonna have a word with the boy, for sure. :104511:

They distracted her, though. Poor Danica. I was really rooting for her.

Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum ... Danica Patrick, Indy car driver and the cow-eyed FLDS mothers, born to kiss male hiney and make babies.

[Jute]

ITA. Makes sense to me that being brainwashed is a form of mental derangement - maybe temporary insanity? (Hopefully temporary.)

Of course, we're calling what has occurred with the FLDS women brainwashing, but we call it battered women's syndrome in other situations ... don't we? And also that thing that happens (can't think of the 'syndrome' name at the moment) to kidnap victims who begin to identify with their captors?

Anyhoo, it's all some form of impairment of ability to think independently, to rationalize, to understand the presence of danger, to seek safety.

That's how I view the FLDS women - but I realize part of that is because I come from a polar opposite point of view. Fierce independence, always questioning authority, etc. and so forth.

Cannot imagine living my life in the shadow of a man. Especially when I realize, through living WITH a man, how much more capable women are in so many ways.

Off my soapbox now, too. :022:

The sentence I bolded is a perfect summation-and I believe it justifies removing the children. These women have no idea they are in danger, how can they possibly understand that their children are? Thanks, GGW. :)

[Jute]

:girl_haha: I'm supposed to be doing things around the house and getting things together for our trip. I just can't quit reading about the FLDS and their atrocities. One thing I am finding since the Texas raid are more articles of research people are doing on their own. I am glad to see there is a considerable amount of righteous outrage at what is going on.

I just hope it continues.:mad: I don't want these people to be able to just slink away and continue their evil practices.

[StoneFox]

The sentence I bolded is a perfect summation-and I believe it justifies removing the children. These women have no idea they are in danger, how can they possibly understand that their children are? Thanks, GGW. :)

:zm1: ABSOLUTELY!!!

THAT is the one thing Judge Walther understands about these women. She saw the Stepford Wife analogy and knows these women are incapable of protecting the children from the horrors that are in their 'imminent future'.

[grammybears]

I suspect that the State will fight this all the way. There are many people I think that are just watching and reading about all of this that are rooting for the children. Also how can the children be protected if the women cannot even see that they are being abused and brainwashed. I think that this has to be followed through because if it isn't then the fate of these kids will not be very good. As it stands right now I have to wonder what this group will do to these kids that could be returned. I can just hear that they have been tainted by the outside world and must be punished. I just do not think there is an easy answer for all of this.
But if Texas backs down, more and more of these cults will be popping up and the abuses will just continue.

jmoo