Talks Fell Through

[SavannahStar]

With returning of the kids...FLDS attorneys objections to some of the requirements...I don't know ANY more. This was reported on other boards, coming from MSNBC I think.

[awakening2lite]

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) -- A Texas judge has refused to sign an agreement ordering the return of polygamist children after attorneys for their parents objected to changes she sought.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther wanted to place additional restrictions on the parents and give state child protection workers more authority to monitor the families.

Walther said she would sign the order after the parents, all members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Eldorado, agreed to those terms.

source: http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=8395696&nav=0s3dBd5Y

[Tracian]

I think that some of the terms made the parents look like they were already guilty, without the benefit of due process or evidence offered to support such requirements.

Awakening, I am a little confused, and you seem knowledgeable on this:

How can the judge make requirements when both courts said that the removal was wrong in the first place?

TIA

[awakening2lite]

I think that some of the terms made the parents look like they were already guilty, without the benefit of due process or evidence offered to support such requirements.

Awakening, I am a little confused, and you seem knowledgeable on this:

How can the judge make requirements when both courts said that the removal was wrong in the first place?

TIA

It's my understanding the court did not say the investigation was not appropriate, just that the removable of the children was done without trying other methods of investigating with the children in the home. This would indicate the need to lay out a plan for the CPS workers to have access to the ranch and the children, something the sect has resisted. After CPS found several underage girls pregnant they may have wanted parental classes. I think the Judge ordered it because they are still under investigation. And because they are investigating the Judge ordered them not to take the children out of the area prior to Aug.

That said, it may also be that they do not want to be photographed as the parent of the child and make a sworn statement that they are the parents of the child. Maybe there is concern when the dna results finally come in that there may become an issue.

We don't know, at this time, exactly which or how many of the stipulations are being objected to by the sect.

[Tracian]

Thanks Awakening!!!

[awakening2lite]

Thanks Awakening!!!

You're welcome.

Here's a bit more on the restrictions of movement:

EXCERPT

Also, the children would not be allowed to leave the state for at least 90 days, and if the families move within Texas, the parents must notify the state seven working days prior to the relocation.
And if the children were to travel within state lines more than 60 miles from where they live, the state must be told at least 48 hours in advance.

source: http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9428706

[Tracian]

You're welcome.

Here's a bit more on the restrictions of movement:

EXCERPT

Also, the children would not be allowed to leave the state for at least 90 days, and if the families move within Texas, the parents must notify the state seven working days prior to the relocation.
And if the children were to travel within state lines more than 60 miles from where they live, the state must be told at least 48 hours in advance.

source: http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9428706


I know we are going to disagree, but I think that the judge is pushing it. I agree that CPS should be allowed access to the ranch and do checks, because it is important, for the children, as well as to allow a proper investigation; I think keeping them in the state for a reasonable amount of time, while a proper investigation is conducted is reasonable. I don't like the parenting classes, because IMO, there is no reason to order them, even to the younger mothers unless that is a normal to order all mothers under the age of 18 into parenting classes.

I was listening to the video from your link, and it seems that because there are so many lawyers involved, the issue is again the 'blanket' ruling rather than making individual rulings of requirements.

It is my hope that CPS and the families can reach a fair and reasonable compromise, that insures civil rights are protected, and that a fair and reasonable investigation can either prove allegations of abuse, or allow these people to live in peace.

Just a 'footnote' like in any community, there is a possibility that one family or more are guilty of abuse, I am not so naive to believe that these folks are perfect, but this is the very reason that they cannot all be lumped together.

Please don't ask me to find it tonight, LOL, but I posted on one of the earlier threads about monogamous couples dwell on that ranch, and also had their children removed, so that in itself, prove that not all of those that live there walk in lock step, or at least at this point.

Let me also add, because I just thought of it, :) that according to experts, the FLDS community is rather paranoid, perhaps if CPS showed some flexibilty, they could earn the trust of some of the people there, maybe even some of those that many believe are wanting someone to trust so that they can excape, you know what they say about flies and honey.

Done for now :hide:

[awakening2lite]

This is a sect that believes and practices polygamy. I question a monogamous couple, unless they are referring to themselves as such because the man has not yet been allowed to take or be assigned more wives. After all, they all start with the first wife.

About the parental classes, we just don't know (yet) if that is the normal routine for families involved with CPS in Texas. I'll go out on a limb and assume for the sake of argument that they are not. In this case, requiring them to take parental classes may be to make sure they are more aware of the choices around them.

Here's a list of what is required to be taught in the parent class in Texas:

The course must include information on the following issues:

(1) the emotional effects of divorce on parents;

(2) the emotional and behavioral reactions to divorce by young children and adolescents;

(3) parenting issues relating to the concerns and needs of children at different development stages;

(4) stress indicators in young children and adolescents;

(5) conflict management;

(6) family stabilization through development of a co-parenting relationship;

(7) the financial responsibilities of parenting;

(8) family violence, spousal abuse, and child abuse and neglect; and

(9) the availability of community services and resources.

(d) A course may not be designed to provide individual mental health therapy or individual legal advice.

-------------
BTW the course is available on line.

I'm wondering if it was very obvious, from interviews of the mothers and children, that they are not aware of some of the things the course could teach them. For instance, what is child abuse, financial responsibilities of parenting, community services and resources, and so forth.

Once again, it's my concern they may be objecting to being photographed with the child they claim and making a sworn statement about them, or as has been mentioned, they may be disappointed on not being able to remove the children from the area. The DNA results are still coming.

Because the parent course is available on line and certified on line, I don't think it would be the big objection. Just doesn't sense. to me, to block the immediate return of your children because you object to a course that's available on line. IIRC the cost was $10.00.

[SavannahStar]

I know we are going to disagree, but I think that the judge is pushing it. I agree that CPS should be allowed access to the ranch and do checks, because it is important, for the children, as well as to allow a proper investigation; I think keeping them in the state for a reasonable amount of time, while a proper investigation is conducted is reasonable. I don't like the parenting classes, because IMO, there is no reason to order them, even to the younger mothers unless that is a normal to order all mothers under the age of 18 into parenting classes.

I was listening to the video from your link, and it seems that because there are so many lawyers involved, the issue is again the 'blanket' ruling rather than making individual rulings of requirements.

It is my hope that CPS and the families can reach a fair and reasonable compromise, that insures civil rights are protected, and that a fair and reasonable investigation can either prove allegations of abuse, or allow these people to live in peace.

Just a 'footnote' like in any community, there is a possibility that one family or more are guilty of abuse, I am not so naive to believe that these folks are perfect, but this is the very reason that they cannot all be lumped together.

Please don't ask me to find it tonight, LOL, but I posted on one of the earlier threads about monogamous couples dwell on that ranch, and also had their children removed, so that in itself, prove that not all of those that live there walk in lock step, or at least at this point.

Let me also add, because I just thought of it, :) that according to experts, the FLDS community is rather paranoid, perhaps if CPS showed some flexibilty, they could earn the trust of some of the people there, maybe even some of those that many believe are wanting someone to trust so that they can excape, you know what they say about flies and honey.

Done for now :hide:

Wonderful post, Tracian! :zm10:

[Tracian]

Awakening,

Is your problem with polyagamy in general? I read your post, and want to discuss it with you piece by piece if that is okay :)

TIA

BTW, they are working on my cable lines, so if I am not around, it is not by my will....I am in a cult.....cable internet...and they do control me :D

[johnielee333]

I think that some of the terms made the parents look like they were already guilty, without the benefit of due process or evidence offered to support such requirements.

Awakening, I am a little confused, and you seem knowledgeable on this:

How can the judge make requirements when both courts said that the removal was wrong in the first place?

TIA

probably because both courts arent saying that there isnt any abuse, they're just saying there wasnt enough proof of abuse that was affecting all the kids to remove them all when they did. the higher courts know there is abuse going on so they gave the lower court room to set some rules down for the FLDS parents to follow before they give the kids back.
so they can keep investagiting. i believe this is legal for the judge to do.
JMO of course.

[grammybears]

In Utah the high schools are teaching parenting classes to all students. My oldest granddaughter was telling me about all they were being taught . She also told me it would be a long time before she had any children because there is a lot of responsibility with having a child. I have felt for a long time that parenting classes need to be taught to our youth. It will either scare these kids to death or make them very responsible. I cannot see an issue with the parenting classes. The issues of not leaving the state, monitoring would probably be bigger issues to me if I were in their situation.
I also imagine everybody was willing to agree to anything to get all the kids back but when it came time to sign the agreements I believe is where the problem came in.

I also do not think that if cps had made some concessions with this group they would have agreed any more readily. They are already breaking laws and they know it. They did not want the momitoring. Nobody wants their life monitored but in some cases it has to be. Also they are not singling out the flds to monitor, it happens everyday with a lot of troubled homes where the state gets involved. The same rules need to be applied to everybody, not just a select few, cults, religious groups or what have you.
This group is not so special that they should except different rules for them.

jmoo

[johnielee333]

i agree with you grammybears.

[johnielee333]

so why wont the FLDS people agree to what the judge put on paper & sign it ? what are they afraid of ? what are they hiding ? are they planning on running with the children ? to me if they really loved & wanted their children back, then they would do what its takes to get them back.

[awakening2lite]

Awakening,

Is your problem with polyagamy in general? I read your post, and want to discuss it with you piece by piece if that is okay :)

TIA

BTW, they are working on my cable lines, so if I am not around, it is not by my will....I am in a cult.....cable internet...and they do control me :D


I have stated and continue to state I don't care, at all, what consenting adults do. I couldn't care less that they practice polygamy. I do care what happens to children, in this case, and in all cases.

I use cable internet, but am not a member of any cult and my cable access provider does not control me.

[Tracian]

I have stated and continue to state I don't care, at all, what consenting adults do. I couldn't care less that they practice polygamy. I do care what happens to children, in this case, and in all cases.

I use cable internet, but am not a member of any cult and my cable access provider does not control me.


Do you think that children can be rasied in a polgamist household? Because I agree with your statement about adults.

[awakening2lite]

Do you think that children can be rasied in a polgamist household? Because I agree with your statement about adults.

Yes, I do. And I think children can be raised in a household without the practice of child "spiritual brides" or "throw away" boys and with full knowledge of their rights. Polygamy is, by no means, anything new.

[awakening2lite]

Here's something, I thought was interesting, about CPS in Texas.

EXCERPT

CPS Services

* Intake
o DFPS staff operate Statewide Intake, a toll-free, statewide telephone reporting system to assist individuals in reporting abuse and neglect. Hotline Number: 1-800-252-5400.
o Individuals can report non-emergency reports through the Internet.
o All reports dealing with children which meet the statutory definition of abuse or neglect are assigned to CPS for investigation.



In Fiscal Year 2006, there were 206,173 intakes assigned for investigation alleging abuse/neglect.


Page 8

* Types of Abuse/Neglect
o Abandonment
o Physical Neglect
o Neglectful Supervision
o Refusal to Assume Parental Responsibility
o Physical Abuse
o Sexual Abuse
o Emotional Abuse
o Medical Neglect

Definitions for Abuse/Neglect are found in the Texas Family Code Section 261.001


CPS Services


Page 9

CPS Services

* Investigation
o Investigate the reported incident.
+ It may be necessary to develop a plan to ensure the child’s safety. This safety plan could stipulate a temporary placement outside the home.
o Determine whether child abuse or neglect has occurred.
o Assess the risk of occurrence in the future.
o May refer families to services in the community, such as individual or family therapy, parenting classes, or programs offering financial assistance for utilities/rent and childcare.



Page 10

CPS Services

* Investigation
o Following the investigation, the case could be:
+ Closed with no findings of abuse/neglect,
+ Closed with a referral to community services,
+ Opened as an In Home Safety Services case, or
+ The child/children could be removed and placed in Out-of-Home Care at the direction of the court.



In Fiscal Year 2006, CPS caseworkers completed 163,795 child abuse and neglect investigations.


Page 11

CPS Services

* Family Based Safety Services
o Services designed to reduce the risk of future abuse or neglect while the child remains in the home.
o Assessments are conducted; a plan identifying services needed to ensure the long-term safety and well-being of the child and family is developed.
o Services are authorized by caseworkers and provided through contracts with community agencies.
+ Services may include essential home repairs, parenting classes, and homemaker services.
o Caseworkers and families work together on specific goals for 3-9 months.

source: http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:L1aRnCa27LMJ:www.dshs.state.tx.us/hivstd/eps_mmp/EPS/CPS.ppt+when+texas+cps+requires+parent+class&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us&client=firefox-a


It appears CPS is within their scope to require parental class while they continue their investigation.

[Tracian]

Yes, I do. And I think children can be raised in a household without the practice of child "spiritual brides" or "throw away" boys and with full knowledge of their rights. Polygamy is, by no means, anything new.


Agreed.

[SavannahStar]

It appears CPS is within their scope to require parental class while they continue their investigation.

I would agree BUT, not when it was not right to begin with that they did a sweeping removal of ALL the children in that community. Parenting classes perhaps from those individual families SUSPECTED of abuse, but no further.

[lyndawitha"y]

so why wont the FLDS people agree to what the judge put on paper & sign it ? what are they afraid of ? what are they hiding ? are they planning on running with the children ? to me if they really loved & wanted their children back, then they would do what its takes to get them back.

I do believe that compound was de-populated..you know get rid of any dna evidenciary people not to mention all the locked gates w/ chains and ATV's patrolling the perimeter ..to keep people out or to keep people in..not so sure

I think they do not want to expose themselves to any scrutiny one iotta..and the BIG YES...to hiding something!

:yes2:

[lyndawitha"y]

Yes, I do. And I think children can be raised in a household without the practice of child "spiritual brides" or "throw away" boys and with full knowledge of their rights. Polygamy is, by no means, anything new.

I read somewhere and heard one of the escaped victims describe that some of these fathers start teaching their daughters young as 6-7 for how to service their chosen DNA donor..Frightening to think that this stuff goes on..

I don't get the picture of these people making love..simply donating the miracle serum to procreate..kinda like you see animals do..no romance, no caring, sharing, nurturing, much less love goin on there..Sickens me to think that this is the life of these youngsters, and women of this sect... These women are no different than acting like denmothers..doing what is expected of them without any thinking, but doing anything that is wanted by the rulers over them..in a nutshell, this flock just dont have any idea other than what they have been brainwashed to believe..also to lie is to protect their abusers..I think someone referred to Stockholm Syndrome scenerio..

:groan:

[awakening2lite]

I read somewhere and heard one of the escaped victims describe that some of these fathers start teaching their daughters young as 6-7 for how to service their chosen DNA donor..Frightening to think that this stuff goes on..

I don't get the picture of these people making love..simply donating the miracle serum to procreate..kinda like you see animals do..no romance, no caring, sharing, nurturing, much less love goin on there..Sickens me to think that this is the life of these youngsters, and women of this sect... These women are no different than acting like denmothers..doing what is expected of them without any thinking, but doing anything that is wanted by the rulers over them..in a nutshell, this flock just dont have any idea other than what they have been brainwashed to believe..also to lie is to protect their abusers..I think someone referred to Stockholm Syndrome scenerio..

:groan:

I agree, it is a sad situation to be caught up in and certainly not the living conditions I would choose. However, consenting adults are considered capable of deciding for themselves how to lead their lives.

Last night one of the stations was covering exactly what you mention; the grooming of 6-7 year olds, by their fathers, to enable them to perform sexually for their "chosen" spiritual husband. If it is true, it is truly disgusting and should not be tolerated and is against the laws in every state.

It's when the preferences of perverted adults, who prey on children or who neglect or throw away children, that the authorities need to step in and make permanent changes to break the chain of repeating perverse behavior. IMO

[awakening2lite]

Here is the State of Texas law outlined for Reunification of families:

Texas Administrative Code
Next Rule>>
TITLE 40 SOCIAL SERVICES AND ASSISTANCE
PART 19 DEPARTMENT OF FAMILY AND PROTECTIVE SERVICES
CHAPTER 700 CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES
SUBCHAPTER G SERVICES FOR FAMILIES
RULE §700.703 Family Reunification Services

The Department of Family and Protective Services' (DFPS's) Child Protective Services (CPS) Division provides reunification services to families whose children are returning home at the end of their stay in substitute care. It does not include the services that CPS provides to families over the general course of a child's stay in substitute care, even though those services are usually directed towards family reunification. The purpose of the services is to provide support to the family and the child during the child's transition from living in substitute care to living at home. There are three levels of family reunification services--regular, intensive early, and intensive, all distinguished by the level of risk in the home. Any of these services may be provided directly or through contracts.
(1) Regular reunification services.

(A) Definition. CPS provides regular reunification services to families whose children are returning home at the end of their stay in substitute care. The purpose of the services is to provide support to the family and the child during the child's transition from living in substitute care to living at home.

(B) Objectives. The objectives of regular reunification services are to:

(i) ensure a smooth transition by helping the family and child prepare for and adjust to the child's return;

(ii) help the parents build on family strengths and resources in order to manage the risk of abuse or neglect; and

(iii) enable the family to ensure the child's safety without CPS assistance after the case is closed.

(C) Criteria. All of the criteria specified in clauses (i) - (iv) of this subparagraph must be satisfied before CPS provides regular reunification services:

(i) at least one child was removed from the home;

(ii) parents must have a reasonably stable living arrangement;

(iii) parents are working to complete goals listed on the family service plan; and

(iv) a target date has been set for the child's transition home or the transition is in process.

(2) Intensive early reunification services.

(A) Definition. Intensive early reunification services are provided to families when a child has been in short-term substitute care. In many of these cases the children are returned home by the "14-Day Show Cause Hearing." Risk factors are high in these cases and intensive support services are needed.

(B) Objectives. The objectives of intensive early reunification services are to:

(i) provide immediate services that can help parents build on family strengths and resources in order to reduce the risk of abuse and neglect;

(ii) ensure the earliest possible safe return home of children who come into DFPS conservatorship; and

(iii) enable the family to ensure the child's safety without CPS assistance after the case is closed.

(C) Criteria. All of the criteria specified in clauses (i) - (iv) of this subparagraph must be satisfied before CPS provides intensive early reunification services:

(i) at least one child was removed from the home;

(ii) a plan is in place to ensure the safety of the child;

(iii) intensive services are likely to improve the level of functioning of these families; and

(iv) the parents must have a reasonably stable living arrangement.

(3) Intensive family reunification services.

(A) Definition. CPS provides intensive family reunification services to families whose children have been placed in substitute care for a longer period of time than intensive early reunification cases. Depending on the length of time a child has been in substitute care, the family may need various levels of support to rebuild the parent-child relationship. These families should be provided with a continuum of services through community agencies, CPS services, and extended family support. These resources should be used to assist the child and family through the reunification process.

(B) Objectives. The objectives of intensive family reunification services are to:

(i) ensure a smooth transition by helping the family and child prepare for and adjust to the child's return;

(ii) help the parents build on family strengths and resources in order to reduce the risk of abuse or neglect; and

(iii) enable the family to ensure the child's safety without CPS assistance after the case is closed.

(C) Criteria. All of the criteria specified in clauses (i) - (v) of this subparagraph must be satisfied before CPS provides intensive family reunification services:

(i) at least one child was removed from the home;

(ii) the situation is high risk and the permanency plan is family reunification;

(iii) the parents must have a reasonably stable living arrangement;

(iv) the parents are working to complete goals listed on the family service plan; and

(v) a plan is in place to ensure the safety of the child.

Source Note: The provisions of this §700.703 adopted to be effective May 1, 1998, 23 TexReg 3030; amended to be effective March 1, 2007, 32 TexReg 551

source: http://secure.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=40&pt=19&ch=700&rl=703

----------------------------------------------------

Once again, it appears CPS and court are well within the standard guild lines of the law in asking for parental classes (family service plan) and asking them to agree to restrictions on leaving the area during the investigation (90) days.

[Details]

The court ruling was really pretty minimal, very limited scope - especially when you read it itself, and not the media descriptions that include plenty of stuff that is nowhere in the court's decision.

The investigation is not wrong, only removing them from homes without individual hearings was found wrong - and it was found wrong because the judge and CPS had in their power strong other methods that the appeals court and supreme court felt would be sufficient - including everything they are doing now. They were just about ordered to put requirements and court orders on the parents, then let them have the kids back.



Of course I still wonder how this works - who do you give the kids back to? Who are the parents?

[lyndawitha"y]

Just want to be upfront to anyone who is wondering jst what my stand is on 1) what CPS did 2) what the Judge has done 3) what the Supreme Court decided 4) what this group of FLDS stands for 5) what child abuse is 6) what brainwashing means 7) Child's rights are...Just incase there is any confusion..

1) CPS did what they thought was in the best interest of all the children at that address
2) The Judge followed the law given all the information she was given, and allowed for all parties to obtain council and that there would be time to investigate
3) The Supreme Court Judges decided in a vaccum, evidence ( which they were not given all of it) and narrowly found not enough evidence to justify removing all those kids
4) FLDS stands for Warren Jeff's agenda to populate his family with the chosen seed of his bidding..to isolate his flock from any possibilities of education on any level thus controlling all thoughts, wants, needs in order to control the masses to do his bidding..i.e. grooming children with devient behavior acceptance, slave labor to bring in money to the chosen's pockets, removing, reassigning children from birth parents to his high ranking chosen few to train, they way he wants all to act/think/behave.yiks I could go on..
5) Child Abuse.. When a child is removed from their birth parent on a whim and placed in a training camp in order to preserve control,teaching and endoctrination to the way of life pre-planned for them..Being used a ponds to satisfy the need to populate, service the rutting rams..you know men just have to release themselves..and self-service is forbidden.. and just plan isolate their young minds to nothing but HIS Voice..and instructed to worship their prophet ..not God, Not Christ, not Alla, Not Mohammed and certainly NOT to value themselves as a child of God with a destiny to do greatness..but only to service..
6) Brainwashing, is when one is so overwhelmed with the repetative declaration that the Prophet (WJ) is God's word, have no right to think for themselves, become a sheep in the herd of people who must feel they have no choice, cannot question, and love..now that is just something i don't think they know what that means...devotion yes, but not love..adoration yes, love no....having babies is sole purpose of being, serving your prophet is all there is to life..and so on
Child's Rights..now that depends on which side you stand on...I believe every child deserves to be Loved, Protected, Nurtured, encouraged to learn about this great world we have, and most important the right to know who they are, their birthdate, and that they have respect and the freedom to learn, love and grow up as responsible human beings...Take that away from them, then you have only carbon copies of blind slaves with no inner soul or self interest to be themselves..but a tool only to be used and abused (physically, mentally and emtionally)....

These sheep have no self worth, only the worth bestowed upon them by their prophet..the worshipped diety that controls all aspects of their life....SOOOO SADDD!

I hope I have cleared up any confusion as to impressions of whats going on there!

[lyndawitha"y]

I have a question about the education of these children???has there ever been any proof these even any of these kids have had the benefit of learning ABC's..Any School Books ever found?..Any Education Curriculum ever submitted?..Any IQ tests ever administered to these children?..Even in the real world..parents must get their kids to school or have very good reasons for absenteeism from their school.. That alone is considered Child neglect..I'll just bet those young teen moms can't even read..let alone comprehend any book, and no doubt even the bible could not be read out loud by most of them. These puppets learn by rote, hearing tapes...just can't imagine elders, Bishops and Warren Jeff's allowing anyone to learn about the truth out there!?

[Tracian]

I have a question about the education of these children???has there ever been any proof these even any of these kids have had the benefit of learning ABC's..Any School Books ever found?..Any Education Curriculum ever submitted?..Any IQ tests ever administered to these children?..Even in the real world..parents must get their kids to school or have very good reasons for absenteeism from their school.. That alone is considered Child neglect..I'll just bet those young teen moms can't even read..let alone comprehend any book, and no doubt even the bible could not be read out loud by most of them. These puppets learn by rote, hearing tapes...just can't imagine elders, Bishops and Warren Jeff's allowing anyone to learn about the truth out there!?


They have pictures of the class rooms, their is nothing to indicate that these children did not have some kind of education.

[Tracian]

An FLDS education
School districts have told the state that many of the FLDS children are on grade level in core subjects, though some shelters reported some children need catching up.
One FLDS mother, in written comments on DFPS' reunification plan for her family, said the private school at the ranch had a "comprehensive program" that included math, reading, writing, English, history and science, with optional classes such as music.
A Thursday visit to the FLDS schoolhouse in Eldorado showed the students studied a curriculum that included American history and physics, along with priesthood teachings and sermons.
Last week, some FLDS mothers said they were taking home school packets to their children's shelters and spending visits going through them.
For the summer, the state had expected to request a special appropriation from the Legislature, to pay for re-assigning or hiring teachers for the shelters.
"DFPS has determined that it is potentially harmful to this population of students to serve them in a regular school setting, at least for the remainder of this year, and possibly next school year," according to a May 21 letter from Texas Commissioner of Education Robert Scott to district superintendents.

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_9415203

[lyndawitha"y]

Now I have another question..???has onyone ever seen pictures or video's of any women over the age of 60..you know what we would consider the Matriarch of a family...it seems most if not all are women ranging in age from teens to about 50..ball parking..but have never ever seen an elderly women...do these people put them out to sea or what?
Just askin what is out there in regards of how they treat their elderly ( female that is)..we all know that the old foggy male still gets pleasured by children...

[Cat]

Lynda, that has been asked by many, but I do not have an answer. I'd like to know that myself. Maybe they all go to one compound. :confused:

[lyndawitha"y]

Lynda, that has been asked by many, but I do not have an answer. I'd like to know that myself. Maybe they all go to one compound. :confused:

Do you mean like getting put out to pasture..even animals get that by their owners..but how come these compunds only have fertile girls..and a handful of supervisory adult women..no wonder jeff moves these kids around so much...must keep the percentages within his deemed optimal level..

Sorry, this case has just made me sckeptical and lost trust in the basic humane treatment that should be expectd...even deathrow prisoners demand humane treatment..

:1187603408.CR.Mothe:z0tdntknw:

[Tracian]

I found this article interesting:

Children living in crowded quarters that led to upper respiratory illnesses. Youngsters plagued with diarrhea from unhealthy foods they usually did not eat. Distressed mothers enduring widespread rudeness - such as flashlights shined in their faces as they tried to sleep.
Mental health professionals who helped care for FLDS women and children in the weeks after an April raid on the YFZ Ranch describe conditions and treatment they perceived as harsh and unnecessary.
"Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people," wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental "The floor was literally slick with tears..."





Here are links to letters written by staff members from the Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center, which provided assistance to FLDS women and children in San Angelo shelters in April. They are critical of conditions in the shelters and how child welfare workers treated the women and children.
"This was a travesty."
"This situation was a tragedy."
"It was heartwrenching."
"Our roles bacame... confidant and a broker."
"That is a very good question."
"Ashamed of being a Texan."
"I often felt helpless."
"Vast amounts of hypocrisy."
"Even to be an observer was difficult."
"This incident... is not what America or Texas stands for."
"Even the simplest request was discounted."

Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9238520


More from link:

A boy estimated at age 3 walked along a row of cots asking for someone to rock him after he was separated from his mother, one employee wrote. Two CPS worker trailed the youngster taking notes but not helping him. His brother, age 8, eventually took the child into his arms and sat with him in a rocking chair.
"That little boy will always be in my mind," the employee wrote. "How can a beautiful, healthy child be taken from a healthy, loving home and forced into a situation like that, right here in America, right here in Texas?"
Mothers who initially were allowed to stay with their children were later required to leave if their child was older than 12 months. Describing that day, one employee wrote, "the floor was literally slick with tears in places."


The letters from workers are heart breaking.

[4COMMONSENSE]

Here is the State of Texas law outlined for Reunification of families:

Texas Administrative Code
Next Rule>>
TITLE 40 SOCIAL SERVICES AND ASSISTANCE
PART 19 DEPARTMENT OF FAMILY AND PROTECTIVE SERVICES
CHAPTER 700 CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES
SUBCHAPTER G SERVICES FOR FAMILIES
RULE §700.703 Family Reunification Services

The Department of Family and Protective Services' (DFPS's) Child Protective Services (CPS) Division provides reunification services to families whose children are returning home at the end of their stay in substitute care. It does not include the services that CPS provides to families over the general course of a child's stay in substitute care, even though those services are usually directed towards family reunification. The purpose of the services is to provide support to the family and the child during the child's transition from living in substitute care to living at home. There are three levels of family reunification services--regular, intensive early, and intensive, all distinguished by the level of risk in the home. Any of these services may be provided directly or through contracts.
(1) Regular reunification services.

(A) Definition. CPS provides regular reunification services to families whose children are returning home at the end of their stay in substitute care. The purpose of the services is to provide support to the family and the child during the child's transition from living in substitute care to living at home.

(B) Objectives. The objectives of regular reunification services are to:

(i) ensure a smooth transition by helping the family and child prepare for and adjust to the child's return;

(ii) help the parents build on family strengths and resources in order to manage the risk of abuse or neglect; and

(iii) enable the family to ensure the child's safety without CPS assistance after the case is closed.

(C) Criteria. All of the criteria specified in clauses (i) - (iv) of this subparagraph must be satisfied before CPS provides regular reunification services:

(i) at least one child was removed from the home;

(ii) parents must have a reasonably stable living arrangement;

(iii) parents are working to complete goals listed on the family service plan; and

(iv) a target date has been set for the child's transition home or the transition is in process.

(2) Intensive early reunification services.

(A) Definition. Intensive early reunification services are provided to families when a child has been in short-term substitute care. In many of these cases the children are returned home by the "14-Day Show Cause Hearing." Risk factors are high in these cases and intensive support services are needed.

(B) Objectives. The objectives of intensive early reunification services are to:

(i) provide immediate services that can help parents build on family strengths and resources in order to reduce the risk of abuse and neglect;

(ii) ensure the earliest possible safe return home of children who come into DFPS conservatorship; and

(iii) enable the family to ensure the child's safety without CPS assistance after the case is closed.

(C) Criteria. All of the criteria specified in clauses (i) - (iv) of this subparagraph must be satisfied before CPS provides intensive early reunification services:

(i) at least one child was removed from the home;

(ii) a plan is in place to ensure the safety of the child;

(iii) intensive services are likely to improve the level of functioning of these families; and

(iv) the parents must have a reasonably stable living arrangement.

(3) Intensive family reunification services.

(A) Definition. CPS provides intensive family reunification services to families whose children have been placed in substitute care for a longer period of time than intensive early reunification cases. Depending on the length of time a child has been in substitute care, the family may need various levels of support to rebuild the parent-child relationship. These families should be provided with a continuum of services through community agencies, CPS services, and extended family support. These resources should be used to assist the child and family through the reunification process.

(B) Objectives. The objectives of intensive family reunification services are to:

(i) ensure a smooth transition by helping the family and child prepare for and adjust to the child's return;

(ii) help the parents build on family strengths and resources in order to reduce the risk of abuse or neglect; and

(iii) enable the family to ensure the child's safety without CPS assistance after the case is closed.

(C) Criteria. All of the criteria specified in clauses (i) - (v) of this subparagraph must be satisfied before CPS provides intensive family reunification services:

(i) at least one child was removed from the home;

(ii) the situation is high risk and the permanency plan is family reunification;

(iii) the parents must have a reasonably stable living arrangement;

(iv) the parents are working to complete goals listed on the family service plan; and

(v) a plan is in place to ensure the safety of the child.

Source Note: The provisions of this §700.703 adopted to be effective May 1, 1998, 23 TexReg 3030; amended to be effective March 1, 2007, 32 TexReg 551

source: http://secure.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=40&pt=19&ch=700&rl=703

----------------------------------------------------

Once again, it appears CPS and court are well within the standard guild lines of the law in asking for parental classes (family service plan) and asking them to agree to restrictions on leaving the area during the investigation (90) days.


Not really, the higher courts said they should'nt have the kids in the first place. This would apply to families that had a full adversarial hearing and were placed in custody. That happened here, BUT the higher court overruled it and decided the state could not retain custody.
They're supposed to give the kids back, then any parent that is accused of abuse should be awarded a hearing to dispute the allegations. When a judge determines that abuse occurred, a case plan would be developed.
They can't just go into any home and tell a parent to follow their plan or else.
Since, in most of the cases , the case workers said there was no abuse, I have a hard time imagining that they will be able to legally interfere in these families lives, unless the parents sign that order.
Walthers is a judge, she can order the plan without anyone signing. She doesn't want to do that IMO because she knows that she has no right to impose all these conditions, unless the parents sign it. Then they're stuck.

[4COMMONSENSE]

I found this article interesting:

Children living in crowded quarters that led to upper respiratory illnesses. Youngsters plagued with diarrhea from unhealthy foods they usually did not eat. Distressed mothers enduring widespread rudeness - such as flashlights shined in their faces as they tried to sleep.
Mental health professionals who helped care for FLDS women and children in the weeks after an April raid on the YFZ Ranch describe conditions and treatment they perceived as harsh and unnecessary.
"Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people," wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental "The floor was literally slick with tears..."





Here are links to letters written by staff members from the Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center, which provided assistance to FLDS women and children in San Angelo shelters in April. They are critical of conditions in the shelters and how child welfare workers treated the women and children.
"This was a travesty."
"This situation was a tragedy."
"It was heartwrenching."
"Our roles bacame... confidant and a broker."
"That is a very good question."
"Ashamed of being a Texan."
"I often felt helpless."
"Vast amounts of hypocrisy."
"Even to be an observer was difficult."
"This incident... is not what America or Texas stands for."
"Even the simplest request was discounted."

Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9238520


More from link:

A boy estimated at age 3 walked along a row of cots asking for someone to rock him after he was separated from his mother, one employee wrote. Two CPS worker trailed the youngster taking notes but not helping him. His brother, age 8, eventually took the child into his arms and sat with him in a rocking chair.
"That little boy will always be in my mind," the employee wrote. "How can a beautiful, healthy child be taken from a healthy, loving home and forced into a situation like that, right here in America, right here in Texas?"
Mothers who initially were allowed to stay with their children were later required to leave if their child was older than 12 months. Describing that day, one employee wrote, "the floor was literally slick with tears in places."


The letters from workers are heart breaking.

I've read them. I can't believe that after reading these letters anybody could think that CPS is concerned anbout the children's best interests.

[awakening2lite]

Not really, the higher courts said they should'nt have the kids in the first place. This would apply to families that had a full adversarial hearing and were placed in custody. That happened here, BUT the higher court overruled it and decided the state could not retain custody.
They're supposed to give the kids back, then any parent that is accused of abuse should be awarded a hearing to dispute the allegations. When a judge determines that abuse occurred, a case plan would be developed.
They can't just go into any home and tell a parent to follow their plan or else.
Since, in most of the cases , the case workers said there was no abuse, I have a hard time imagining that they will be able to legally interfere in these families lives, unless the parents sign that order.
Walthers is a judge, she can order the plan without anyone signing. She doesn't want to do that IMO because she knows that she has no right to impose all these conditions, unless the parents sign it. Then they're stuck.

The first paragraph clearly states this is the procedure CPS follows, by law, when children are reunited with their families after a say in CPS care. Regardless of the court finding that CPS should have sought alternate methods of investigation allowing the children to remain in the home, they were and have been in the care of CPS. They are still subject to an on going investigation.

[awakening2lite]

I found this article interesting:

Children living in crowded quarters that led to upper respiratory illnesses. Youngsters plagued with diarrhea from unhealthy foods they usually did not eat. Distressed mothers enduring widespread rudeness - such as flashlights shined in their faces as they tried to sleep.
Mental health professionals who helped care for FLDS women and children in the weeks after an April raid on the YFZ Ranch describe conditions and treatment they perceived as harsh and unnecessary.
"Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people," wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental "The floor was literally slick with tears..."





Here are links to letters written by staff members from the Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center, which provided assistance to FLDS women and children in San Angelo shelters in April. They are critical of conditions in the shelters and how child welfare workers treated the women and children.
"This was a travesty."
"This situation was a tragedy."
"It was heartwrenching."
"Our roles bacame... confidant and a broker."
"That is a very good question."
"Ashamed of being a Texan."
"I often felt helpless."
"Vast amounts of hypocrisy."
"Even to be an observer was difficult."
"This incident... is not what America or Texas stands for."
"Even the simplest request was discounted."

Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9238520


More from link:

A boy estimated at age 3 walked along a row of cots asking for someone to rock him after he was separated from his mother, one employee wrote. Two CPS worker trailed the youngster taking notes but not helping him. His brother, age 8, eventually took the child into his arms and sat with him in a rocking chair.
"That little boy will always be in my mind," the employee wrote. "How can a beautiful, healthy child be taken from a healthy, loving home and forced into a situation like that, right here in America, right here in Texas?"
Mothers who initially were allowed to stay with their children were later required to leave if their child was older than 12 months. Describing that day, one employee wrote, "the floor was literally slick with tears in places."


The letters from workers are heart breaking.

It is horrible. However, the link does also indicate this was the temporary shelter they were taken to immediately following the raid. It's obvious they were not prepared to handle that many people and they were moved to other quarters.

[4COMMONSENSE]

It is horrible. However, the link does also indicate this was the temporary shelter they were taken to immediately following the raid. It's obvious they were not prepared to handle that many people and they were moved to other quarters.


It doesn't explain the callousness of the workers.

[4COMMONSENSE]

The first paragraph clearly states this is the procedure CPS follows, by law, when children are reunited with their families after a say in CPS care. Regardless of the court finding that CPS should have sought alternate methods of investigation allowing the children to remain in the home, they were and have been in the care of CPS. They are still subject to an on going investigation.

Where does it say "regardless of the fact that CPS had NO RIGHT to remove the kids in the first place." This would happen after a parent went to court and it was determined that they abused their child. The higher court's ruling was also based on the fact that these parents weren't afforded due proccess by receiving an individual adversarial hearing.
They can't legally require you to participate in anything if they haven't even accused you of abuse.

[awakening2lite]

It doesn't explain the callousness of the workers.

Nor am I defending them.

[awakening2lite]

Where does it say "regardless of the fact that CPS had NO RIGHT to remove the kids in the first place." This would happen after a parent went to court and it was determined that they abused their child. The higher court's ruling was also based on the fact that these parents weren't afforded due proccess by receiving an individual adversarial hearing.
They can't legally require you to participate in anything if they haven't even accused you of abuse.


Can you post a link stating CPS does not have to follow the laws governing them under the circumstances of this ruling cause I don't see that exception in the law reference posted?

This will likely end up in court, again. Personally, I doubt it is the parenting class they object to, I think they are more likely to object to being photographed with the child, signing a sworn statement of parentage, and having their movements restricted until August 31 while under investigation.

[4COMMONSENSE]

Can you post a link stating CPS does not have to follow the laws governing them under the circumstances of this ruling cause I don't see that exception in the law reference posted?

This will likely end up in court, again. Personally, I doubt it is the parenting class they object to, I think they are more likely to object to being photographed with the child, signing a sworn statement of parentage, and having their movements restricted until August 31 while under investigation.

Do you have a link showing that if CPS is found to have illegally removed a child, a parent still has to go along with whatever conditions the agency that already committed an unlawful act imposes on them ?
It doesn't make sense.

If you'd read the orders, the judge tried to alter it extensively, however the big issue is that she wanted all the mothers that were involved in the appeal's case to sign first. The attorney's said it wasn't practical as most of the mothers were spread out all over Texas visiting their children.

[awakening2lite]

Do you have a link showing that if CPS is found to have illegally removed a child, a parent still has to go along with whatever conditions the agency that already committed an unlawful act imposes on them ?
It doesn't make sense.

If you'd read the orders, the judge tried to alter it extensively, however the big issue is that she wanted all the mothers that were involved in the appeal's case to sign first. The attorney's said it wasn't practical as most of the mothers were spread out all over Texas visiting their children.

Legal agreements and docs are signed all the time, even when parties are not all in the same place. Using an excuse like 'being spread out' does not sound reasonable. Please, they can use a fax machine from almost anywhere.

I posted the laws CPS is bound to and a link. As I said before, there is nothing in it that would offer an exception to anyone who has been in their custody.

I'm still waiting on your link to show this situation is an exception to the laws CPS is bound by. TIA

[4COMMONSENSE]

Legal agreements and docs are signed all the time, even when parties are not all in the same place. Using an excuse like 'being spread out' does not sound reasonable. Please, they can use a fax machine from almost anywhere.

I posted the laws CPS is bound to and a link. As I said before, there is nothing in it that would offer an exception to anyone who has been in their custody.

I'm still waiting on your link to show this situation is an exception to the laws CPS is bound by. TIA

Do you not understand that they have to give up custody regardless ?
It's a court order.
Why is the judge demanding that they sign it ? Why doesn't she just order it and arrest anyone that doesn't comply for contempt.

Walthers was ordered to remove the children from state custody, that means they go back. They don't have to sign anything for that to happen.

Again, why does she want them to sign ?

[4COMMONSENSE]

Legal agreements and docs are signed all the time, even when parties are not all in the same place. Using an excuse like 'being spread out' does not sound reasonable. Please, they can use a fax machine from almost anywhere.

I posted the laws CPS is bound to and a link. As I said before, there is nothing in it that would offer an exception to anyone who has been in their custody.

I'm still waiting on your link to show this situation is an exception to the laws CPS is bound by. TIA

How about this, in the policy that you posted it says
--all distinguished by the level of risk in the home--
Since they haven't had a full adversarial hearing and they're not charged individually with abuse, the risk level hasn't been distinguished.
Therefore this does not apply in this case.

[awakening2lite]

Do you not understand that they have to give up custody regardless ?
It's a court order.
Why is the judge demanding that they sign it ? Why doesn't she just order it and arrest anyone that doesn't comply for contempt.

Walthers was ordered to remove the children from state custody, that means they go back. They don't have to sign anything for that to happen.

Again, why does she want them to sign ?


EXCERPT

The higher courts ruled that the state's case particularly failed in regard to boys and pre-pubescent girls and that the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services had other alternatives for working with parents to ensure safety while leaving the children in their care.

source: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9428706

[awakening2lite]

How about this, in the policy that you posted it says
--all distinguished by the level of risk in the home--
Since they haven't had a full adversarial hearing and they're not charged individually with abuse, the risk level hasn't been distinguished.
Therefore this does not apply in this case.

Where does it say they have to be taken to court first? I don't read that.
C i-iv are requirements
B i-iii are objectives

EXCERPT - post 24

(1) Regular reunification services.

(A) Definition. CPS provides regular reunification services to families whose children are returning home at the end of their stay in substitute care. The purpose of the services is to provide support to the family and the child during the child's transition from living in substitute care to living at home.

(B) Objectives. The objectives of regular reunification services are to:

(i) ensure a smooth transition by helping the family and child prepare for and adjust to the child's return;

(ii) help the parents build on family strengths and resources in order to manage the risk of abuse or neglect; and

(iii) enable the family to ensure the child's safety without CPS assistance after the case is closed.

(C) Criteria. All of the criteria specified in clauses (i) - (iv) of this subparagraph must be satisfied before CPS provides regular reunification services:

(i) at least one child was removed from the home;

(ii) parents must have a reasonably stable living arrangement;

(iii) parents are working to complete goals listed on the family service plan; and

(iv) a target date has been set for the child's transition home or the transition is in process.

[lyndawitha"y]

I've read them. I can't believe that after reading these letters anybody could think that CPS is concerned anbout the children's best interests.

I read this account, and again use common sense...this description is from who?, how old,? professional or a volunteer..do gooder who had no training or ability to see , deal with appropriately..not get caught up in the emotion of it all....we all remember what we witnessed during th Katrina fiasco..I find it somewhat disengenuous to judge this whole thing by pointing to a few rather uneducated, uninformed and it seems by her choice of words, not particularly aware of just what was going on..She saw hundreds of children, confused, women of the cult ( professional babysitters) certainly not necessarily the parents..as no one would give names, birthdates or identify parentage..so what else could they do....Please for all the name calling of the CPS, the Courts, the judges based on personal nervousness..and yet not giving any credence to documented cases of abuse, victims of this cult..sighting..No proof of abuse..I am sorry if any young girl has 4 children by the time shes 19..Mathematically impossible unless she started MATING at 15..underage in any state..yet the blind eye is put to that fact..enough already, I am sure there was chaos, confusion for all involved in that housing the first week after removal from the ranch/compound/prison..but none of this would ever happen if this cult were honest..stepped up to the plate with information helpful, yet instead..they sabotaged all efforts to identify who was who..

Just my opinion here, but that editorial should have prefaced that artilce with full disclosure regarding the person interviewed, date of interview..what they were there for and their credentials//...i will stop there..as these anti anti's give me a big pain you know where..as they are the first to cry foul for any reason just to get attention and get compensation...This is not a perfect world..obviously even the laws do no cover or are able to account for mass groups disobeying laws..

:71541::6u8ky2o:

[Tracian]

What the workers did after the raid was disgusting, they were treating those children like a science project, reminded me of those experiments that were done on toddlers in the 20's when they offered no support or comfort to children, just so they could see 'what would happen'

Wonder why Nancy Grace and others that are beating this drum of 'abuse' at the Ranch, that has not been established with supporting evidence, have not taken into consideration what contracted mental health workers have reported.

Could it be that it would tarnish that shining armor and knock them off those white horses they rode in on?

Well, IMO, it is no wonder those children had no desire to talk to the workers; and what about the reports that the mother's were hostile....oh, not true according to mental health staff, also not true that the mother's chose to abandon their children to return to the ranch. (Nancy Grace has reported all those things)

If these children were not abused on the ranch, well, now we can all be assured they were once they were rescued.

Where is the outrage? Or is it 'ya gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette.'

Sorry, again I will say, if these children suffered abuse at the ranch...then draw and quarter those that did so, but for the state, to shrug off abuses that were witnessed, because it makes them look bad, because it ruins the image they created in the media is just sick.

[RayStar]

OK do they go back to court on Monday? Or when is the next court date. I'll admit I have been so tied up with 6 grandkids this weekend. I have two who have won full 4-year scholarships to U of M.

I hope this is settled soon and the kids have suffered no social ills. I tend to think being away from the compound they have witnessed a life far different from theirs.

[lyndawitha"y]

EXCERPT

The higher courts ruled that the state's case particularly failed in regard to boys and pre-pubescent girls and that the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services had other alternatives for working with parents to ensure safety while leaving the children in their care.

source: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9428706

Did I not read somewhere that the gates of this compound were padlocked..and the perimeter guarded with gun/rifle carrying ATV runners??..Just how would CPS get access to work with anybody?..Sorry..again in a perfect world with cooperating parents, then yes CPS can and do work with issues...but the mindset, lifestyle of these cult members were not cooperative one bit!..and for judges to assume this would happen is totally rediculous..in their dreams maybe...but the facts simply don't lend credence to that possibility....

:104511:

[Tracian]

I read this account, and again use common sense...this description is from who?, how old,? professional or a volunteer..do gooder who had no training or ability to see , deal with appropriately..not get caught up in the emotion of it all....we all remember what we witnessed during th Katrina fiasco..I find it somewhat disengenuous to judge this whole thing by pointing to a few rather uneducated, uninformed and it seems by her choice of words, not particularly aware of just what was going on..She saw hundreds of children, confused, women of the cult ( professional babysitters) certainly not necessarily the parents..as no one would give names, birthdates or identify parentage..so what else could they do....Please for all the name calling of the CPS, the Courts, the judges based on personal nervousness..and yet not giving any credence to documented cases of abuse, victims of this cult..sighting..No proof of abuse..I am sorry if any young girl has 4 children by the time shes 19..Mathematically impossible unless she started MATING at 15..underage in any state..yet the blind eye is put to that fact..enough already, I am sure there was chaos, confusion for all involved in that housing the first week after removal from the ranch/compound/prison..but none of this would ever happen if this cult were honest..stepped up to the plate with information helpful, yet instead..they sabotaged all efforts to identify who was who..

Just my opinion here, but that editorial should have prefaced that artilce with full disclosure regarding the person interviewed, date of interview..what they were there for and their credentials//...i will stop there..as these anti anti's give me a big pain you know where..as they are the first to cry foul for any reason just to get attention and get compensation...This is not a perfect world..obviously even the laws do no cover or are able to account for mass groups disobeying laws..

:71541::6u8ky2o:


They are professionals contracted by the state, for mental health.


"Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people," wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental "The floor was literally slick with tears..."
Here are links to letters written by staff members from the Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center, which provided assistance to FLDS women and children in San Angelo shelters in April. They are critical of conditions in the shelters and how child welfare workers treated the women and children

Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.
Texas contracts with Hill Country to provide mental health services during disasters. Staff members met with the center's board of trustees last week, leaving them "spellbound." The board has gathered nine written statements critical of Child Protective Services.

[Tracian]

Did I not read somewhere that the gates of this compound were padlocked..and the perimeter guarded with gun/rifle carrying ATV runners??..Just how would CPS get access to work with anybody?..Sorry..again in a perfect world with cooperating parents, then yes CPS can and do work with issues...but the mindset, lifestyle of these cult members were not cooperative one bit!..and for judges to assume this would happen is totally rediculous..in their dreams maybe...but the facts simply don't lend credence to that possibility....

:104511:


I have not read anywhere that this group has illegal guns. I didn't read likewise that there was any hostility from the FLDS when the raid occurred.

[awakening2lite]

Did I not read somewhere that the gates of this compound were padlocked..and the perimeter guarded with gun/rifle carrying ATV runners??..Just how would CPS get access to work with anybody?..Sorry..again in a perfect world with cooperating parents, then yes CPS can and do work with issues...but the mindset, lifestyle of these cult members were not cooperative one bit!..and for judges to assume this would happen is totally rediculous..in their dreams maybe...but the facts simply don't lend credence to that possibility....

:104511:

I read that article, too.
Maybe this is why the judge is requiring them to agree to CPS having access at any time.

BTW, what's the kick in the butt for?

[awakening2lite]

I have not read anywhere that this group has illegal guns. I didn't read likewise that there was any hostility from the FLDS when the raid occurred.

No one reported them as illegal guns.

The sheriff was reported saying they (the sect men) regularly patrol the 1700 acres on 4 wheels drives with rifles.

[Tracian]

No one reported them as illegal guns.

The sheriff was reported saying they (the sect men) regularly patrol the 1700 acres on 4 wheels drives with rifles.


So? I live in California, in ranch/farm community, and that is not uncommon here, for ranchers to go around on horse back or in ATV's with rifles, while patroling their land.

Further, there has been no act of aggression to my knowledge when the raid occurred.

Also, I know many people that have security gates on their property, or live in gated communities with private security guards.

[lyndawitha"y]

No one reported them as illegal guns.

The sheriff was reported saying they (the sect men) regularly patrol the 1700 acres on 4 wheels drives with rifles.

Legal rifles (firearms) is not the issue..however these guards are patroling to keep people out or keep people inside.....????....I am sure they have walkie talkies to report any activities noted in their rounds too.[.and before some accuses me of accusing the illegal use of walkie talkies..please get a life]...Close scrutiny is the order of the day on that compound..I wonder who monitors them from the hierarchy?..I doubt even these guys have much power.

[Tracian]

Does it make anyone wonder why once these people were 'rescued' why no one reported abuse and offered information?

[4COMMONSENSE]

They are professionals contracted by the state, for mental health.


"Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people," wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental "The floor was literally slick with tears..."
Here are links to letters written by staff members from the Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center, which provided assistance to FLDS women and children in San Angelo shelters in April. They are critical of conditions in the shelters and how child welfare workers treated the women and children

Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.
Texas contracts with Hill Country to provide mental health services during disasters. Staff members met with the center's board of trustees last week, leaving them "spellbound." The board has gathered nine written statements critical of Child Protective Services.


And a former county commissioner and board member released them, he wanted to make sure the public was aware of the inhumanities being perpetrated against these children. He also wanted civil rights attorneys brought in on behalf of the women and children.

[4COMMONSENSE]

Does it make anyone wonder why once these people were 'rescued' why no one reported abuse and offered information?

I thought maybe it was because they weren't really abused.

[awakening2lite]

Does it make anyone wonder why once these people were 'rescued' why no one reported abuse and offered information?


Well that's been the question, Tracian.

Some believe, because the women and children are indoctrinated with the belief that what is done to them is done in the name of the Prophet Warren Jeffs and that they will be damned to hell if they go against it, that they do not consider it wrong.

It could be compared, to a benign lie parents tell children about Santa Claus when most of the world considers telling a lie is wrong. It's done for joyful reasons, but it is generational and considered harmless, but lie it is all the same and those who do it do not consider it wrong.

[RayStar]

Does it make anyone wonder why once these people were 'rescued' why no one reported abuse and offered information?

Perhaps they know no difference?:0009:

[Tracian]

Well that's been the question, Tracian.

Some believe, because the women and children are indoctrinated with the belief that what is done to them is done in the name of the Prophet Warren Jeffs and that they will be damned to hell if they go against it, that they do not consider it wrong.

It could be compared, to a benign lie parents tell children about Santa Claus when most of the world considers telling a lie is wrong. It's done for joyful reasons, but it is generational and considered harmless, but lie it is all the same and those who do it do not consider it wrong.


Well, if that is the case, then it can be agrued that the woman are not guilty of abuse even if it occurred.

Personally, I think that CPS messed up completely...if there was abuse, by the way CPS treated the children and the women, they ruined any chance of being trusted, if there was not abuse, well, now there is, compliments of CPS.

[johnielee333]

Does it make anyone wonder why once these people were 'rescued' why no one reported abuse and offered information?


:duh:

[Jute]

They are professionals contracted by the state, for mental health.


"Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people," wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental "The floor was literally slick with tears..."
Here are links to letters written by staff members from the Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center, which provided assistance to FLDS women and children in San Angelo shelters in April. They are critical of conditions in the shelters and how child welfare workers treated the women and children

Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.
Texas contracts with Hill Country to provide mental health services during disasters. Staff members met with the center's board of trustees last week, leaving them "spellbound." The board has gathered nine written statements critical of Child Protective Services.
My problem with those statements is that they were all unsigned. The workers claimed to be under some sort of non-disclosure agreement, but no one has said with whom. If everything was to be kept quiet, why were they allowed to release their statements to the press? The statements were rambling and unprofessional for the most part, nothing like I would expect to see from a group of people they claim to be written by. I am highly suspicious of unsigned documents-especially those leaked to the press when they were to be kept confidential. :0009:

[Jute]

Well that's been the question, Tracian.

Some believe, because the women and children are indoctrinated with the belief that what is done to them is done in the name of the Prophet Warren Jeffs and that they will be damned to hell if they go against it, that they do not consider it wrong.

It could be compared, to a benign lie parents tell children about Santa Claus when most of the world considers telling a lie is wrong. It's done for joyful reasons, but it is generational and considered harmless, but lie it is all the same and those who do it do not consider it wrong.

Don't forget that Louisa Bradshaw Jessop considers Warren Jeffs to be "perfect."

[lyndawitha"y]

My problem with those statements is that they were all unsigned. The workers claimed to be under some sort of non-disclosure agreement, but no one has said with whom. If everything was to be kept quiet, why were they allowed to release their statements to the press? The statements were rambling and unprofessional for the most part, nothing like I would expect to see from a group of people they claim to be written by. I am highly suspicious of unsigned documents-especially those leaked to the press when they were to be kept confidential. :0009:

Jute, I too commented on that report you are referring to..I too am troubled by the voracity of such comments, and I too assessed those comments NOT to be coming from any professional who had skills necessary to see things in proper perspective..I think this person was only a volunteer, with litle experience or knowledge base to be making such assumptions..totally unprofessional, and totally innacurate..we all remember what happened in the Katrina fiasco, in the stadium full of people, and the horror stories we all heard and saw...Well, considering how many youngsters that had to be removed from this compound, I believe they did the best that they could..and moved them out to more appropriate enviornment was done fairly quickly in my estimation..

:innocent0002:

[awakening2lite]

Well, if that is the case, then it can be agrued that the woman are not guilty of abuse even if it occurred.

Personally, I think that CPS messed up completely...if there was abuse, by the way CPS treated the children and the women, they ruined any chance of being trusted, if there was not abuse, well, now there is, compliments of CPS.


Hmmm, ignorance does not absolve one of guilt. If they are found guilty of failing to protect (or other charges) and plan to ask for leniency because of ignorance, then taking the parenting classes would certainly open their eyes. Maybe they are objecting to taking the classes.

[SavannahStar]

Jute, I too commented on that report you are referring to..I too am troubled by the voracity of such comments, and I too assessed those comments NOT to be coming from any professional who had skills necessary to see things in proper perspective..I think this person was only a volunteer, with litle experience or knowledge base to be making such assumptions..totally unprofessional, and totally innacurate..we all remember what happened in the Katrina fiasco, in the stadium full of people, and the horror stories we all heard and saw...Well, considering how many youngsters that had to be removed from this compound, I believe they did the best that they could..and moved them out to more appropriate enviornment was done fairly quickly in my estimation..

:innocent0002:

How do you know for a fact they are "totally inaccurate"?

[lyndawitha"y]

Well that's been the question, Tracian.

Some believe, because the women and children are indoctrinated with the belief that what is done to them is done in the name of the Prophet Warren Jeffs and that they will be damned to hell if they go against it, that they do not consider it wrong.

It could be compared, to a benign lie parents tell children about Santa Claus when most of the world considers telling a lie is wrong. It's done for joyful reasons, but it is generational and considered harmless, but lie it is all the same and those who do it do not consider it wrong.

I think the word Benign says it all...it is obvious that things like Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy..are Benign..but to completely dehumanize and insist the "LIEs" are the Word of God is pure unadulterated blasphamy..not sure just how much these sheep ( members) grasp that??Yes..lies are lies...but to basterize the word of God is absolutely unforgiveable..and those that preach that will pay for thatin their final judgement day..but it is up to our society to bring such practice to account where we can..We can only hope anyway!

:innocent0001:

[4COMMONSENSE]

My problem with those statements is that they were all unsigned. The workers claimed to be under some sort of non-disclosure agreement, but no one has said with whom. If everything was to be kept quiet, why were they allowed to release their statements to the press? The statements were rambling and unprofessional for the most part, nothing like I would expect to see from a group of people they claim to be written by. I am highly suspicious of unsigned documents-especially those leaked to the press when they were to be kept confidential. :0009:


They were contracted by the state, we know where they work. A former county commissioner that's on the board of the clinic where these people worked, wanted the truth to come out. He was disgusted by CPS's treatment of these women and children. These were handwritten notes, I know kids that graduate that can barely spell. So much is done on computer's with spell check that you can almost get through life without spelling. The reason he gave the letters to the press is because of the inaccurate "leaks" to the press by CPS. Do you really only want one side of the story ?
Why not be concerned that these children might have been treated poorly by the parties that are supposed to take care of them?

[Details]

How do you know for a fact they are "totally inaccurate"?She said "I think" - presumably her opinion from reading the letters, judging the content and the more material facts in there.

I've read them too - all of them. They contradict each other to some degree, are light on facts and heavy on emotion (for example, they'll say how awful CPS was being, how ashamed they were - with little to say what they think was wrong that was so awful - the examples given are requiring the children to have medical exams without parents present (normal), not allowing private conversations between mothers and children (normal - especially as the mothers were making it quite clear they were going to resist any investigation happening), and - horrors - walking with flashlights through areas where people are sleeping.

There's a reference to the children being unhappy when separated from mothers - another normal thing (and in a description that contradicts some video footage). One who saw CPS being wonderful, others who saw them as evil incarnate.

Seems to me they wanted to judge the case without the facts, became partisan based on mere phyiscal appearances, and left professionalism behind. They saw neat clean children without obvious bruises, and with polite, sweet mothers, and judged the case with emotion. Lots of abused children are neat and polite, and their mothers quiet and sweet - because of what happens to them the instant they step out of line. It's not like the movies where an abuser just about wears a placard, and the abused child is obvious to everyone other than the other actors in the movie.

They're used to helping out in a disaster - when there's no investigation, everyone's a victim, and advocacy is just fine. Seems to me they just couldn't handle the difference in this situation. And the guy who released this wanted his 15 minutes.

[Details]

They were contracted by the state, we know where they work. A former county commissioner that's on the board of the clinic where these people worked, wanted the truth to come out. He was disgusted by CPS's treatment of these women and children. These were handwritten notes, I know kids that graduate that can barely spell. So much is done on computer's with spell check that you can almost get through life without spelling. The reason he gave the letters to the press is because of the inaccurate "leaks" to the press by CPS. Do you really only want one side of the story ?
Why not be concerned that these children might have been treated poorly by the parties that are supposed to take care of them?Only one side? We only get the FLDS side - they're free to talk. CPS isn't allowed to say a word, pretty nearly, other than in court.

And these letters don't contradict anything in the media, leaked or otherwise. It's all emotion and charged terms.

Jessop was there - she said CPS was respectful and appropriate. I believe her.

[4COMMONSENSE]

Only one side? We only get the FLDS side - they're free to talk. CPS isn't allowed to say a word, pretty nearly, other than in court.

And these letters don't contradict anything in the media, leaked or otherwise. It's all emotion and charged terms.

Jessop was there - she said CPS was respectful and appropriate. I believe her.

Which Jessop ? One of the mothers ?

[4COMMONSENSE]

She said "I think" - presumably her opinion from reading the letters, judging the content and the more material facts in there.

I've read them too - all of them. They contradict each other to some degree, are light on facts and heavy on emotion (for example, they'll say how awful CPS was being, how ashamed they were - with little to say what they think was wrong that was so awful - the examples given are requiring the children to have medical exams without parents present (normal), not allowing private conversations between mothers and children (normal - especially as the mothers were making it quite clear they were going to resist any investigation happening), and - horrors - walking with flashlights through areas where people are sleeping.

There's a reference to the children being unhappy when separated from mothers - another normal thing (and in a description that contradicts some video footage). One who saw CPS being wonderful, others who saw them as evil incarnate.

Seems to me they wanted to judge the case without the facts, became partisan based on mere phyiscal appearances, and left professionalism behind. They saw neat clean children without obvious bruises, and with polite, sweet mothers, and judged the case with emotion. Lots of abused children are neat and polite, and their mothers quiet and sweet - because of what happens to them the instant they step out of line. It's not like the movies where an abuser just about wears a placard, and the abused child is obvious to everyone other than the other actors in the movie.

They're used to helping out in a disaster - when there's no investigation, everyone's a victim, and advocacy is just fine. Seems to me they just couldn't handle the difference in this situation. And the guy who released this wanted his 15 minutes.


Of course they're going to contradict themselves, they weren't all working with the same families or CPS workers. They also talked about the way the children were disciplined and one said their parenting was "text book" and we could all learn something from them. Why wouldn't they be emotional, when they're watching the state of Texas treat these families in that manner ?

[lyndawitha"y]

Only one side? We only get the FLDS side - they're free to talk. CPS isn't allowed to say a word, pretty nearly, other than in court.

And these letters don't contradict anything in the media, leaked or otherwise. It's all emotion and charged terms.

Jessop was there - she said CPS was respectful and appropriate. I believe her.
You are right on target..and most views here and those that GET IT..don't necessarily need "Hard Evidence' as it is clear just what is going on there1

However, having said that..shear condemming the govt. is also unfounded unless you had a individual bad experience..We all know that this group are in no way the lowly individual...THEY are a Big Corporate Machine who has used and abused people, and the system for decades!!and it's about time they get held accountable!

:zm1::attention:

[4COMMONSENSE]

You are right on target..and most views here and those that GET IT..don't necessarily need "Hard Evidence' as it is clear just what is going on there1

However, having said that..shear condemming the govt. is also unfounded unless you had a individual bad experience..We all know that this group are in no way the lowly individual...THEY are a Big Corporate Machine who has used and abused people, and the system for decades!!and it's about time they get held accountable!

:zm1::attention:


If you're the one that gets it, why didn't the higher courts rule according to your position ?

[lyndawitha"y]

Which Jessop ? One of the mothers ?

Please dont insult our intelligence..jessop is a common name in their circles..so here is a link to an actual Jessop of their GROUP:



http://www.childbrides.org/carolyn.html

PLEESE..do some homework before chastising a poster..

:eyebrow1qb:

Sometimes i wonder just why people comment without prefacing they don't know the case or information availablke...no poster would ever fault anyone for being mis-informed or don't have access to the information...but please don't question the post with out doing either your homework..or at least be honest and STATE you don't KNOW!

PLEASE oh PLEASE..this has been going on for close to 2 months..not breaking news..

:faintTHUD:

[lyndawitha"y]

If you're the one that gets it, why didn't the higher courts rule according to your position ?

Please read it..it was very narrow..and to some extent not informed..but then again I don't live in your country..only hve a stand of the freedoms of children, and people..sorry to offend your sense of justice:71541:

Sometimes I do wonder IF you indeed have commonsense??:faintTHUD:

:groan:

[SavannahStar]

If you're the one that gets it, why didn't the higher courts rule according to your position ?

Good question! :0doh:

[4COMMONSENSE]

Please dont insult our intelligence..jessop is a common name in their circles..so here is a link to an actual Jessop of their GROUP:



http://www.childbrides.org/carolyn.html

PLEESE..do some homework before chastising a poster..

:eyebrow1qb:

Sometimes i wonder just why people comment without prefacing they don't know the case or information availablke...no poster would ever fault anyone for being mis-informed or don't have access to the information...but please don't question the post with out doing either your homework..or at least be honest and STATE you don't KNOW!

PLEASE oh PLEASE..this has been going on for close to 2 months..not breaking news..

:faintTHUD:

I didn't chastise a poster.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Did you not read the post that I was responding to ?

This is the post I was responding to ;
__________________________________________________ ________________
Originally Posted by Details
Only one side? We only get the FLDS side - they're free to talk. CPS isn't allowed to say a word, pretty nearly, other than in court.

And these letters don't contradict anything in the media, leaked or otherwise. It's all emotion and charged terms.

Jessop was there - she said CPS was respectful and appropriate. I believe her.

__________________________________________________ _______________
This indicates that a Jessop was a witness to CPS's actions after the removal of the children.
I wanted to know if the poster was referring to Carolyn or Flora, since I didn't know they were there, or if she was talking about one of the mothers who are Jessops that were part of the raid, like Lori Jessop who recently got her kids back.

If that didn't make sense to you, it's not my problem.

What did that have to do with childbrides ?

:groan:

[4COMMONSENSE]

Please read it..it was very narrow..and to some extent not informed..but then again I don't live in your country..only hve a stand of the freedoms of children, and people..sorry to offend your sense of justice:71541:

Sometimes I do wonder IF you indeed have commonsense??:faintTHUD:

:groan:

I read it, my position won, yours did not. :67302:

[lyndawitha"y]

I didn't chastise a poster.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Did you not read the post that I was responding to ?

This is the post I was responding to ;
__________________________________________________ ________________
Originally Posted by Details
Only one side? We only get the FLDS side - they're free to talk. CPS isn't allowed to say a word, pretty nearly, other than in court.

And these letters don't contradict anything in the media, leaked or otherwise. It's all emotion and charged terms.

Jessop was there - she said CPS was respectful and appropriate. I believe her.

__________________________________________________ _______________
This indicates that a Jessop was a witness to CPS's actions after the removal of the children.
I wanted to know if the poster was referring to Carolyn or Flora, since I didn't know they were there, or if she was talking about one of the mothers who are Jessops that were part of the raid, like Lori Jessop who recently got her kids back.

If that didn't make sense to you, it's not my problem.

What did that have to do with childbrides ?

:groan:


You obviously did not bother to open the link..It is about Carolyn Jessop..and her escape from that sect with her 4 (four) children..please don't blame the messenger for the answering of your question:6u8ky2o:..Please read link..not the label in the link....This is in now way what you think it explains...

:waitasec:

[lyndawitha"y]

I read it, my position won, yours did not. :67302:

This is really not a laughing matter.we are speaking about the use nd abuse of youngsters..I find it disconcerting that your find it humerous:shock:
:hide::71541::cryintime:

[Details]

Which Jessop ? One of the mothers ?I'm trying to remember - Flora, I think was her name? An ex-FLDS member who has been much involved in helping Lost Boys and other escapees. They had her to be an advisor - she knows a lot of what these mothers have been through, and are going through when exposed to a different world, etc.

[lyndawitha"y]

Does anone know the percentages of prominence of the NAME: Jessop.I know it's scary think about..but it seems to me that the surname JESSOP.is very common..and one cannot compare that to Smith and Jones.. just wondering as it seems to me surnames of about 33% of each is the practice and who knows the given name percentages..however I am sure there are duplicates of given and surnames given to cover the tracks of the perpretators..This is indeed NOT a laughing matter..and to chuckle is either to be totally out of touch or totally disrespectful to the issues at hand.

If you want to blame the government for false detainment..fine..but don't blame the authority's for attempting to deal with a pervasive perverted way of life..Everyone has the right/ freedom to confront their accusers..but no one has the right to hide behind the skirts of the law and innocents..

Please just agree to disagree..Life will go on regardless, but there are a few of us who have worked their entire lives to protect children..and not in your face advocacy but behind the scenes..

[Details]

The Supreme Court didn't rule CPS was wrong to investigate. Nor that they were wrong to take action on the children. The only point they said was wrong was removing all of the children without individual hearings. And the specific reason they said it was wrong was that the judge and CPS had the capability to put other restrictions - forbid sex offenders to come near the residence, prohibit leaving Texas, require inspections and unnanounced visits - the TX Supreme Court ruled on a very limited point, and their ruling made it quite clear that limited point was the only spot they were ruling on.

[4COMMONSENSE]

The Supreme Court didn't rule CPS was wrong to investigate. Nor that they were wrong to take action on the children. The only point they said was wrong was removing all of the children without individual hearings. And the specific reason they said it was wrong was that the judge and CPS had the capability to put other restrictions - forbid sex offenders to come near the residence, prohibit leaving Texas, require inspections and unnanounced visits - the TX Supreme Court ruled on a very limited point, and their ruling made it quite clear that limited point was the only spot they were ruling on.

The appeals court said they were wrong to take the children, the supreme court upheld their decision.

From the ruling,

The Department also failed to establish that the need for protection of the Relators’ children was urgent and required immediate removal of the children.

[4COMMONSENSE]

I'm trying to remember - Flora, I think was her name? An ex-FLDS member who has been much involved in helping Lost Boys and other escapees. They had her to be an advisor - she knows a lot of what these mothers have been through, and are going through when exposed to a different world, etc.


Was she at the shelters with the women and children ?

If not, why would it matter what she said about CPS.
I really like the U-tube video when she and a friend was harrassing a member of the LDS and smoking a cigarette.
Then there was also a tv interview she did in a Budweiser t-shirt someone had posted a link to.

Classy.

[4COMMONSENSE]

This is really not a laughing matter.we are speaking about the use nd abuse of youngsters..I find it disconcerting that your find it humerous:shock:
:hide::71541::cryintime:

I find it humorous that you still think the state handled this well. :eyebrow1qb:

[Jute]

They were contracted by the state, we know where they work. A former county commissioner that's on the board of the clinic where these people worked, wanted the truth to come out. He was disgusted by CPS's treatment of these women and children. These were handwritten notes, I know kids that graduate that can barely spell. So much is done on computer's with spell check that you can almost get through life without spelling. The reason he gave the letters to the press is because of the inaccurate "leaks" to the press by CPS. Do you really only want one side of the story ?
Why not be concerned that these children might have been treated poorly by the parties that are supposed to take care of them?

I don't want only one side of the story, but I would like the information that I am given to be valid. The reports weren't standardized, they were simply hand-written thoughts. If the complaints were so serious, why haven't we heard anything about Hill Country MHMR pursuing this? IMO, it looks like someone with an agenda wanted to get this information out-and did a good job. It couldn't be challenged because the letters were anonymous.

Mental health workers rip CPS over sect / Staff complains agency traumatized kids, disregarded mothers' rights

By ROGER CROTEA, NANCY MARTINEZ
San Antonio Express-news

Needed to communicate

Kevin Dinnin, the president of Baptist Children and Family Services who served as incident commander at the shelter under a contract between his agency and the state, said he couldn't confirm many of the allegations made by the MHMR workers.

"Some of it is unfounded," he said. "Some of it is accurate, depending on your point of view. Were the shelters crowded? Yeah. But it's a shelter. And yes, CPS workers were taking notes and listening. Yes, they were always around. I'm not defending CPS, but it's hard to give people privacy in a shelter."

Also-"To respond to the allegations, CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said via e-mail: "We have received no complaints from Hill Country MHMR. However, we will be looking into what are obviously very serious allegations, and sharing these allegations with other agencies as appropriate.""

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2008_4565198

I would like to know why Hill Co. didn't respond to Crimmins, and why they don't appear to have taken any steps to have the allegations acted on.

[Jute]

This is really not a laughing matter.we are speaking about the use nd abuse of youngsters..I find it disconcerting that your find it humerous:shock:
:hide::71541::cryintime:

:shock:

[SavannahStar]

Don't forget that Louisa Bradshaw Jessop considers Warren Jeffs to be "perfect."

Good thing in this great country of ours we can't get arrested for what we think!

[4COMMONSENSE]

I don't want only one side of the story, but I would like the information that I am given to be valid. The reports weren't standardized, they were simply hand-written thoughts. If the complaints were so serious, why haven't we heard anything about Hill Country MHMR pursuing this? IMO, it looks like someone with an agenda wanted to get this information out-and did a good job. It couldn't be challenged because the letters were anonymous.

Mental health workers rip CPS over sect / Staff complains agency traumatized kids, disregarded mothers' rights

By ROGER CROTEA, NANCY MARTINEZ
San Antonio Express-news

Needed to communicate


Kevin Dinnin, the president of Baptist Children and Family Services who served as incident commander at the shelter under a contract between his agency and the state, said he couldn't confirm many of the allegations made by the MHMR workers.

"Some of it is unfounded," he said. "Some of it is accurate, depending on your point of view. Were the shelters crowded? Yeah. But it's a shelter. And yes, CPS workers were taking notes and listening. Yes, they were always around. I'm not defending CPS, but it's hard to give people privacy in a shelter."

Also-"To respond to the allegations, CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said via e-mail: "We have received no complaints from Hill Country MHMR. However, we will be looking into what are obviously very serious allegations, and sharing these allegations with other agencies as appropriate.""

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2008_4565198

I would like to know why Hill Co. didn't respond to Crimmins, and why they don't appear to have taken any steps to have the allegations acted on.


They can't make CPS do anything, the guilty parties sure aren't going to admit it. There's too much at stake.
What steps could they take ? Those in charge at CPS are aware and and they should be dealing with it.
The only reason these parents stand a chance of getting their kids back is because of the media. Since the media is the most powerful tool when it comes to CPS in this case, the commissioner that "leaked" these reports to the media took the most effective step.
Kevin Dinnin was in charge of the center, do you think he's going to rat out the agency that pays him ?

[4COMMONSENSE]

Good thing in this great country of ours we can't get arrested for what we think!

No, we can only lose our children.

[SavannahStar]

On cnn.com:

Breaking News: Texas judge today signed an order allowing more than 440 children seized from a polygamist sect to be returned to their parents.

[SavannahStar]

Oops I didn't mean for the font to be THAT big. Sorry.

[4COMMONSENSE]

On cnn.com:

Breaking News: Texas judge today signed an order allowing more than 440 children seized from a polygamist sect to be returned to their parents.


Thank God, I hope they didn't have to sell their souls. :basic44:

[SavannahStar]

BREAKING NEWS: FLDS children heading home today
By Matt Phinney (Contact)
Originally published 09:07 a.m., June 2, 2008
Updated 09:07 a.m., June 2, 2008

Judge Barbara Walther of the 51st District Court signed an order this morning vacating the state's custody of children taken from the YFZ Ranch during a raid in early April.

According to the order, issued by the clerk's office at the Tom Green County Courthouse, legal guardians of the children can beginning picking them up starting at 10 a.m. today through 5 p.m. and continuing each day until all the children have been returned.

The document also orders the parent, managing conservator or legal guardian to participate in parenting classes and not to interfere with any ongoing investigations. It also stipulates that agents of the Child Protective Services can visit the home of the children and interview the children, and that CPS has access to the residence of each child for unannounced visits during the hours of 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. every day.

Every child also shall remain in the state of Texas at all times and shall not be removed from Texas for any reason without approval for the court, according to the order.

The order, in compliance with decisions of the Third Courts of Appeals and the Texas Supreme Court, ends the state's custody of nearly 450 children taken from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound near Eldorado during a protracted raid that started April 3.

The Standard-Times has disabled the comment feature on gosanangelo.com for 30 days as we evaluate our policy regarding Web site comments.
http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/flds0602.pdf

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/02/flds-children-heading-home-today/

[Tracian]

Good news. Thanks for the link Savannah!

[awakening2lite]

Here's more on the conditions:

June 2, 2008, 11:12AM

EXCERPT

Walther's ruling also orders FLDS parents to participate in parenting classes and not to interfere with any ongoing investigations. It also allows CPS to make unnannounced visits — from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. — to the FLDS' Yearning For Zion Ranch north of Eldorado, to check on the children.

All children will be photographed, along with their parents, who also must sign affidavits about where the children are going before the children are released back to family members.

CPS officials will continue to investigate allegations of abuse, particularly that underage girls were forced into "spirtual marriages" with adult men.

source: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5813766.html

[SavannahStar]

Largest custody case in U.S. doomed from start

Story Highlights
Texas agency scrutinized after huge FLDS custody case falls apart
Some close to case say it was doomed from the start
FLDS says authorities were too eager to listen to group's opponents
Observers say deaths at Waco siege weighed heavily on officials

For nearly two months, Texas child welfare officials had insisted conditions at a polygamist group's ranch were so abusive that none of its members should be allowed to keep their children.

Now, however, one of the largest custody cases in U.S. history has unraveled, and some are looking for what went wrong when the state raided the Yearning For Zion Ranch and removed more than 400 children.

Since the state Supreme Court ruled that the Texas Department of Child Protective Services overreached when it swept the children into foster care, agency officials have been unwilling to discuss the case, their strategy or what went wrong.

However, some close to the debacle say the operation was doomed from the start by a series of missteps.

First is the oddity of a religious sect the agency knew little about, exacerbating the inherent perils of balancing parents' rights and child safety. Then there were the abuse allegations, starting with a mysterious telephone call and echoed by disgruntled former members, seemingly accepted at face value.

And an ill-fated 1992 brush with another religious sect -- which led to the fiery deaths of 21 children at the Branch Davidian compound near Waco -- still lingers on the agency's collective conscience.

"It's difficult to know whether, in fact, they screwed it up," said Linda Spears, vice president of the Child Welfare League of America, a national collection of nonprofits that aid abused and neglected children. "It's the 20/20 hindsight thing."

Folks in Schleicher County, a dusty patch near the middle of Texas, had been at least curious, if not suspicious, of members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a breakaway from the Mormon church whose members believe polygamy earns glorification in heaven.

Members of the group revered leader Warren Jeffs as a prophet. Since the start of the group's Texas ranch, he has been convicted in Utah as an accomplice to rape and is jail in Arizona awaiting trial on separate charges. Watch how the group might win payback at the ballot box »

Sheriff David Doran cultivated a confidential informant to monitor the group's activities, and former FLDS members recounted abuse and forced marriages to anyone who would listen.

Investigators "listened to a lot of misinformation and allowed themselves to be kind of captivated by these anti-FLDS people," said FLDS spokesman Rod Parker.

When someone purporting to be a pregnant 16-year-old called a domestic abuse hot line claiming her middle-aged husband beat her, authorities went in with Child Protective Services workers on April 3. But the calls may have been a hoax.

"We had no choice but to treat those calls as credible. If we had not treated them as credible and something bad happened, people would be very upset," said Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Department of Public Safety, which is still investigating possible sex abuse at the ranch in addition to the origin of the hot line calls.

Children and mothers were taken away from the ranch because CPS workers thought it would be better to interview them at a neutral location, something that wasn't done in the last high-profile brush the agency had with a religious sect -- the Branch Davidians.

CPS workers were confused about names, ages, and relationships of the children and adults in the complicated group marriages of the FLDS. The agency said at the time it believed sect members were deliberately misleading investigators about the names, ages and parentage of the children.

Although caseworkers said when they took custody of all the children that the sect was forcing underage girls into marriage and sex and training boys to be adult perpetrators, only a few dozen of the children swept into custody turned out to be teenage girls, and only a handful had children or were pregnant. Of 31 mothers CPS said were minors, at least half turned out to be adults.

David Schenck, an attorney for some of the mothers, said CPS workers were confronted with a decision when they arrived at the ranch: identify all the men who might be suspected abusers or grab all the children.

"They were interested in taking care of kids, but the problem is they took on more than the evidence is going to support," he said.

Parker called the agency "heavy-handed." A state appeals court essentially agreed, saying the state failed to show that any more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and had offered no evidence of sexual or physical abuse against the other children. The Texas Supreme Court agreed in a ruling issued Thursday.

Spears, a caseworker-turned-advocate, said that despite the high-profile nature of the FLDS case, the dilemma faced by CPS is little different than in most removal cases.

"At the time you walk in, you have very little information even in the best cases," she said, noting the snap risk assessments caseworkers are often asked to make.

The second-guessing, too, is typical. CPS also was criticized for its handling of the Branch Davidians cult at its ranch compound outside Waco. Allegations of abuse at the Waco ranch had swirled for years, but interviews with children at the compound produced no outcry of abuse and CPS closed its investigation in 1992.

A year later, federal agents raided the fortified compound in a weapons investigation. Fire broke out and the 21 children died.

Spears said agencies worry about making wrong calls and seeing harm come to children. Decision-making often swings in reaction to criticism of previous cases or child deaths.

"It swings back and forth," she said. "There's no exact science being practiced here."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/02/flds.cps.ap/index.html

[Jute]

SAN ANGELO, Tex. — More than 460 children seized by state authorities in April in an investigation of possible sexual abuse at an isolated West Texas polygamist community began going home on Monday.

The case, one of the largest custody disputes in United States history, tied the Texas child welfare system in knots and became the focus of a national debate over the limits of police power.

State officials announced the release, under a court order signed by a district judge here in Tom Green County, with an arch, if not quite reluctant, formality and said the story was far from over.

A spokeswoman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, Marleigh Meisner, said the investigation into possible sexual abuse would continue. The judge in the case also imposed a lengthy list of caveats pending the conclusion of the investigation, including surprise home visits by caseworkers, possible psychiatric evaluations of the children and a ban on travel outside Texas.

“We hope they can be safe,” Ms. Meisner said in a statement outside the courthouse. “We continue to have concerns.”

But for the parents, the children and their caregivers in the foster care system, it was a day for tears — of joy at the reunification, or of bittersweet sadness at the parting.

At the High Sky Children’s Ranch in Midland, where 15 girls from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ages 11 to 17, had been staying, the children all donned identical navy blue dresses they had sewn themselves.

“This is their way of celebrating,” said Jackie Carter, executive director of the shelter. “They’re all hugging and happy, but I’m sad because I’m going to miss them — they’ve been very delightful to know.”

At an emergency shelter in Liverpool, about an hour from Houston, where 24 small children were held, some of the youngest children cried at the separation from shelter workers.

“They’ve bonded with some of the caregivers, and there were tears from the caregivers also — tears all around,” said Estella Olguin, a spokeswoman for Child Protective Services in the Houston region, who was there for the release process, which state officials said could take until Friday across the state. “Most of the children are very young — they’re toddlers — so they don’t really know what’s going on.”

Confusion has been a constant in the case, ever since state officials took action on April 3 — prompted, they said, by a call to an abuse hotline from a girl who said that she was 16 and that her 49-year-old husband was abusing her. The girl was never found or identified.

Two court rulings last month — including one from the state’s highest judicial panel — criticized the Department of Family and Protective Services, concluding that the seizure order had been too broad, and that a threat to the safety of all the children in the group’s compound, called the Yearning for Zion ranch, in Eldorado, could not be proved.

The release order issued on Monday was hammered out over the weekend and signed by Judge Barbara Walther of the District Court. It seemed to please no one entirely.

On Friday, Judge Walther walked out of her courtroom in frustration as lawyers for some families argued that she had no rights to impose restrictions on the release.

Her final order, which lawyers said was put together by the judge herself from three different drafts agreed to by various parties, required that every parent from the sect take child-rearing classes and said any interference with the state’s investigation would violate the court order.

Some lawyers for the families said the open-ended nature of the order — it has no expiration date — might mean that at some point another court process will be needed for a final resolution. Others criticized the judge’s inclusion of psychiatric examinations.

But one member of the sect, Willie Jessop, speaking to reporters outside the courthouse here, as a hot wind whipped the trees on a day pushing 100 degrees, said that the settlement was flawed, but that half a loaf was good enough.

“We wish it was a better order,” Mr. Jessop said, “but hey, it gets the children and the mothers back, so we’ll take it.”

In a news conference at the Zion ranch late Monday, Mr. Jessop said his sect would now formally forbid any girl to marry if she was under the legal consent age in the state where she lives.

For the sect, the repercussions will certainly continue. Many members, for example, do not plan on going back to the ranch, founded in 2003 after the group moved from its historic base in Arizona and Utah. The sect broke off from the mainstream Mormon church decades ago over polygamy, which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints disavowed in 1890.

“The children’s last memory of the ranch is of it being raided,” said Cynthia Martinez, a spokeswoman for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, which represents 48 mothers in the case. “That’s a very scary memory.”

Another lawyer said the families she represented had decided that a separate residence was the best legal strategy to convince the state of their good child-rearing skills and willingness to protect their children.

“Gaining independent housing may be part of that process,” said Laura Shockley, a lawyer in Dallas who represents three children and three adults seized in the raid.

Tim Edwards, a San Angelo lawyer representing four mothers, said his clients probably would not be able to get their children until Tuesday because of logistics — the children are in Amarillo, Midland, Fort Worth, San Antonio and Gonzales. “They are scattered to the four winds,” Mr. Edwards said.

But at least one group home, the Austin Children’s Shelter, had emptied out entirely by day’s end. At 8 a.m., the shelter had 19 sect members in its care — 6 adult mothers and 13 children. As vehicles pulled up through the morning and afternoon, shelter workers spread 10-foot-by-10-foot blue tarps around the vehicles to protect the children’s and mother’s identities. Then the vehicles drove away.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/us/03polygamy.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Tracian]

For nearly 10 years, the FLDS withstood government pressure and refused to make any public concession on its marriage practices. That changed Monday when the polygamous sect released a four-paragraph statement vowing to abide by marriage age laws in all states. Spokesman Willie Jessop read the declaration, saying it had been issued by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Asked who authorized it, Jessop said, "Joseph Smith." He also said he was unaware if FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs had any hand in crafting the statement. Here is the statement:
* The church's policies regarding marriage have been widely misrepresented and misunderstood. Indeed, much of the misinformation circulating on this subject seems designed intentionally to fuel the flames of prejudice against the church.
* The church's practices in this regard continue a long tradition of marriage in this country that would have been found to have been unremarkable in 19th century America. In the FLDS church all marriages are consensual. The church insists on appropriate consent, including that of the woman and the man in all circumstances.
* Nevertheless the church is clarifying its policy toward marriage. Therefore, in the future, the church commits that it will not preside over the marriage of any woman under the age of legal consent in the jurisdiction in which the marriage takes place. The church will counsel families that they neither request nor consent to any underage marriages. This policy will apply church-wide.
* The church believes in purity, cleanliness, and innocence. Our children and families are the cornerstones of our lives and our religion. We hope that this modest clarification in policy will alleviate recent concerns and allow the church and its families to reside in peace among our neighbors.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9462175

[cogito]

We all know that the old froggy male still gets pleasured by children?

Do all southern baptists have whitehooded sheets and burn crosses? Are all muslims suicide bombers? Are all Jews zionists?

The more secluded a group keeps itself, the more they are a target of whatever anyone wants to say about them. As a member of the mainstream LDS church, I know only too well what blatant lies and falsehoods are propagted about my church by people who profess to be "in the know"

That experience alone is enough for me to give ANY group the benefit of the doubt when salacious or sensational gossip is thrown out about them.

[Tracian]

Free at last: Courts end broad-brush injustice against FLDS children

Two months after Texas officials raided a ranch and removed 468 children from their homes, a court, at the direction of the Texas Supreme Court, has ended this injustice, ordering that the children be reunited with their parents. Many of the children, whose parents belong to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, had been forced into foster care and scattered across the vast Lone Star State.
Two Texas appeals courts, including the state's Supreme Court, recognized that tearing these kids from their families was unwarranted without specific evidence of child abuse.
From the beginning, state Department of Family and Protective Services officials have argued that the culture of the polygamous FLDS sect is abusive, subjecting under-age girls to arranged marriages with older men and a lifetime of sexual servitude. They have argued that the culture raises girls to be victims of sexual abuse and raises young men to be abusers.
There may be truth in that. But under the law in the United States, a culture cannot be indicted. Only the specific people who commit specific crimes against specific victims can be. Thank goodness.
So far, the evidence that Texas officials have presented has not been convincing enough or particular enough to justify removing all of this community's children from their parents.
That is not to say that foster care may not be warranted in certain instances. But that's the whole point. Officials must meet the burden of proof in individual cases.
Granted, that's sometimes a difficult proposition in secretive polygamous communities. But the standards of justice cannot be relaxed just because the practice of polygamy is distasteful or considered wrong by most Americans.
Judge Barbara Walther, who issued the original order in April granting the department temporary conservatorship of the children, was not lenient when she vacated that order Under her latest order, the FLDS parents must not interfere with the state's ongoing investigation, must make their homes open for unannounced visits and their children available for interviews and examinations. They cannot remove their children from the state and must notify authorities if a child is to travel more than 100 miles.
But at least the children can return to their parents. If individual children should be removed from their parents' custody because of abuse, the state will have to meet the law's burden of proof. That's as it should be.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9457336